No Spark on Boyer - Fixed

swooshdave · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Sorry if I'm sounding daft but when it comes to electrics I want to have crystal clear instructions when testing this crap out. I like to keep the electricity where it belongs and that's not touching me. Coils, capacitors, things that hurt or kill me, no likey. :mrgreen:

I provided nice clear photos of each component and diagrams, so bear with me as I translate your diagrams to something I can understand.

Jeandr said:
When I asked you to test the coil, you should have removed the wire going from the coil to the Boyer and used a clip to ground the coil, doing what the switch does. When you open the circuit, there should be a spark, if there is no spark, the coil is defective.

From this picture I remove the red wire (from the Boyer). That leaves the power wire (Red/White)from the battery to the Positive side of the coil.

This is the Ground (negative) side of the coil. Also remove this black wire (from the Boyer) and then run a ground from this side to something like the head. Turn on the ignition, when I unclip the Ground wire I should see a spark.

Then to test the Boyer:

Jeandr said:
So again: measure point "A" (meter positive to "A" and negative to ground)

Is point "A" the Positive or Negative side of the coil? It looks like the negative side (where the black wire attaches from the Boyer to the coil).

Assuming I understand your diagram, this is point "A", although your diagram does not look like what I think it should if your "switch" is to represent the Boyer. You are showing the "switch" or "Boyer" as after the coil, but this may be conceptual as opposed to practical, which is where I need to be. As if you hadn't guessed by now, I'm not exactly an electrical engineer... if I need to test between two points then just tell me where on the bike to stick it. :mrgreen:

I think I know what you are talking about but man, I don't want to make a mistake and I don't want to just go poking around.

grandpaul · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

This thread has now eclipsed the "Kill Button" thread which 'only' had 72 posts (5 pages) and 823 views.

I KNEW you could do better, Dave!

Is it running yet?

swooshdave · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

grandpaul said:
This thread has now eclipsed the "Kill Button" thread which 'only' had 72 posts (5 pages) and 823 views.

I KNEW you could do better, Dave!

Is it running yet?

Considering the Build thread is 17 pages this is nothing.

Of course your only contribution is for me to buy an ignition from you. :mrgreen:

Jeandr · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

swooshdave said:
This is the Ground (negative) side of the coil. Also remove this black wire (from the Boyer) and then run a ground from this side to something like the head. Turn on the ignition, when I unclip the Ground wire I should see a spark.

That is point "A" now take the measurements I asked and then remove the wire and use a clip to ground the coil to see if it sparks

Jean

MEHAVEY · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Guys, I admit to evesdropping from the sidelines since I have a similar ignition/Boyer problem... but I am now totally confused.

If I understand anything by now, I think I understand at least how the Boyer swtching logic works per the simple digram below. (It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative ground -- just flip the physical coil polarity -- and all other components fit/work the same.

So please...

Check out questions #1 - #3 below and then let us all know where " Point 'A' " is in the discussion above.

swooshdave · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

MEHAVEY said:
Guys, I admit to evesdropping from the sidelines since I have a similar ignition/Boyer problem... but I am now totally confused.

If I understand anything by now, I think I understand at least how the Boyer swtching logic works per the simple digram below. (It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative ground -- just flip the physical coil polarity -- and all other components fit/work the same.

So please...

Check out questions #1 - #3 below and then let us all know where " Point 'A' " is in the discussion above.

You have to be careful not to mix the Positive and Negative Ground problems.

swooshdave · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Jeandr said:
That is point "A" now take the measurements I asked and then remove the wire and use a clip to ground the coil to see if it sparks

Jean

I will. It'll be after the kid goes to sleep so very late.

MEHAVEY · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Why is there a difference? (Honest question)
Unless I am trully missing something, one should be able to turn the coils (and other system diodes as might be in line) around positive-to-negative in the diagram above, and drive power through all switches and Boyer the same way.

No hijack intended (honest again), but please someone point our where the functional differences lie when it gets down to our common (Boyer) problem.

grandpaul · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

The instructions are as simple as can be, one each for negative and positive ground. Stick to the basics, remove EVERYTHING else from the circuits, and if the unit is good, THE BIKE WILL RUN.

No need to buy the unit from me, but you need a new one, that much is obvious by now. You have tried every possible permutation and still no joy, GET A NEW ONE.

Hobot · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Red Boyer power wire must always connect to + battery terminal and its white lead to - battery terminal, no matter what else is made the -ground or +earth return path. Capasitors can be polarity sensitive d/t the construction like blue can type.
They may tend to short out faster.

Jeandr · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

MEHAVEY said:
Guys, I admit to evesdropping from the sidelines since I have a similar ignition/Boyer problem... but I am now totally confused.

If I understand anything by now, I think I understand at least how the Boyer swtching logic works per the simple digram below. (It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative ground -- just flip the physical coil polarity -- and all other components fit/work the same.

So please...

Check out questions #1 - #3 below and then let us all know where " Point 'A' " is in the discussion above.

Point "A" is #3 on your diagram. A Boyer or any other electronic ignition (except capacitor discharge) work the same way, the electronic box acts as a switch or points to put it in engine speak. The points have a capacitor placed across the contacts to enhance the spark and protect the points so they last longer. When the points, switch or electronic switch close thereby taking "A" to ground level, the coil builds up a magnetic field with the current passing through, when they open, taking "A" to 12 volts, the field colapses and induces a voltage in the secondary, made up of a much longer finer wire with a turns ratio of 100 to 1 or higher, high enough to jump the spark plug gap. 12 volts x 100 = 1200 volts :!: that can't be right no :?: in fact, the coil as it colapses oscillates and swings up to 400 volts thus the voltage is nearer 40,000 volts which is high enough to jump the gap even under the pressure of full compression.

1- when the ignition is switched on, the voltage at point 3 ("A" in my diagram) should go to 0 or near 0
2- when a signal is received from the stator, the Boyer will take point 3 ("A") to 0 or near 0 and pulse to 400 volts, but that can only be seen with an oscilloscope, with a meter, you should read 0 or near 0 even when the engine is running.
3- see above

Jean

Swoosh, time to give you daughter a swig of beer and send her off to sleep :mrgreen:

gjr · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

grandpaul said:
The instructions are as simple as can be, one each for negative and positive ground. Stick to the basics, remove EVERYTHING else from the circuits, and if the unit is good, THE BIKE WILL RUN.

No need to buy the unit from me, but you need a new one, that much is obvious by now. You have tried every possible permutation and still no joy, GET A NEW ONE.

Paul,

I agree with the first statement.

I don't believe that the second statement has been shown to be true yet. 1) The boyer produces a spark when the Y/B and W/B wires are disconnected. 2)The resistance through the switches is quite high. The voltage drop across the switches will decrease what is available to the Boyer. 3) The coil resistance is outside the range the Boyer wants to see (2.5 to 5 ohms).

Until the last two issues are tested and resolved, I would not say the Boyer is bad.

Greg

swooshdave · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

I know it may seem like a waste of time but really I have more time than money to throw at this. Granted I don't have a lot of time but it's ok, riding season in Oregon will be done soon. There are many more things to sort out so getting it running is not necessarily the top of the list, although it's the most glamourous. If there is one thing I have it's patience. :mrgreen:

MEHAVEY · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

On the coil test side

...When I asked you to test the coil, you should have removed the wire going from the coil to the Boyer and used a clip to ground the coil,

I finally figured out you just meant "drive the coils directly..." i.e., don't actually ground the other end of the clip wire attached to the coil's drive side (which would null everything out) , but track back to the power side of the battery.

So simple, a cave man could do it.

BTW: The coils/plugs sparked

chris plant · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

hi swoosh,im probably more electrically challenged than you so cant offer any cast iron advise,except my next move would be substitution of the boyer set up and coils,there must be a norton guy near you that would let you borrow their boyer and coils just for elimination,if i could get at mine ide send it over just for the cost of sending it back

Jeandr · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

MEHAVEY said:
On the coil test side

...When I asked you to test the coil, you should have removed the wire going from the coil to the Boyer and used a clip to ground the coil,

Click to expand...

I finally figured out you just meant "drive the coils directly..." i.e., don't actually ground the other end of the clip wire attached to the coil's drive side (which would null everything out) , but track back to the power side of the battery.

Swooshdave has negative ground, that is why I asked him to ground the side of the coil that was connected to the Boyer, on a POSITIVE ground system (with a Boyer or other electronic ignition), what needs to be done is to connect the side of the coil that was going to the electronic box to the negative battery terminal as shown on the two diagrams below.

As can be seen, the positive is connected directly to the coil on both diagrams, then the other side of the coil is connected to the electronic box represented by a switch. The reason is they use an NPN type transistor as the output stage and those are generaly used with the emitter connected to the negative and the load (the coil) connected to the collector. I tried to find a Visio NPN transistor shape, but could not find one otherwise I would have drawn it up.

Jean

swooshdave · Aug 28, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Jeandr said:
[

As can be seen, the positive is connected directly to the coil on both diagrams, then the other side of the coil is connected to the electronic box represented by a switch. The reason is they use an NPN type transistor as the output stage and those are generaly used with the emitter connected to the negative and the load (the coil) connected to the collector. I tried to find a Visio NPN transistor shape, but could not find one otherwise I would have drawn it up.

Jean

Man, no offensive but unless I'm reading this wrong I think you have them switched.

Ont the negative ground, the positive wire goes to the positive side of the coil along with the positive side of the Boyer (red wire). And then the black wire from the Boyer goes somehow magically back to ground?

Ah, crap, it's all black magic to me. :mrgreen:

Jeandr · Aug 29, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

swooshdave said:
Jeandr said:

[

As can be seen, the positive is connected directly to the coil on both diagrams, then the other side of the coil is connected to the electronic box represented by a switch. The reason is they use an NPN type transistor as the output stage and those are generaly used with the emitter connected to the negative and the load (the coil) connected to the collector. I tried to find a Visio NPN transistor shape, but could not find one otherwise I would have drawn it up.

Jean

Click to expand...

Man, no offensive but unless I'm reading this wrong I think you have them switched.

Ont the negative ground, the positive wire goes to the positive side of the coil along with the positive side of the Boyer (red wire). And then the black wire from the Boyer goes somehow magically back to ground?

Ah, crap, it's all black magic to me. :mrgreen:

Nope, my diagrams are right. I simplified things only showing what is needed to produce a spark which is a switch, THAT is what the Boyer does, it switches the power going through the coil. What I did not show, was the connection from the positive to the electronic box which powers the circuits inside, that obviously goes to the positve of the battery regardless of the grounding point (+ or -).

Now get off the internet and go take the measurements :!:

Jean

swooshdave · Aug 29, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

Jeandr said:
Now get off the internet and go take the measurements :!:

Jean

Haven't we already confirmed that the coil functions because the it will spark when hitting the kill switch?

Wasn't able to get to it last nite, but I should today.

maylar · Aug 29, 2010

Re: No Spark on Boyer

swooshdave said:
Haven't we already confirmed that the coil functions because the it will spark when hitting the kill switch?

Yes, I think the coil is OK.

Kill switch? I'm gonna throw this bit of info into the mix here - If you're using the stock kill switch wiring (on the handle bar cluster) BYPASS IT and get it out of the equasion. My kill switch went intermittant many years ago and the bike would lose power suddenly and stop. Kicka... kicka... kicka... on the side of the road, not knowing what's wrong. Then suddenly, vrooom.

Your bike DID start (I heard it in your video, right?). These symptoms smell of an intermittant connection.