Lithium Iron Batteries

Oddysey are great batteries, particularly for off roaders with winches!

I use Motobatt AGM batteries on my bikes. No charging on my race bike, it is total loss, but I prefer the declining voltage of lead style or AGM batteries rather than the cliff edge you can have with Lithium based batteries.

Yes it is more weight, and I didn't choose the smallest I could use, so I try to make a virtue of that weight by placing where I think the bike could use a little more. With the Rickman this is as far forward as I can get it on the top fairing bracket, right behind the race number plate.

Probably when I replace the two I have I will buy smaller AGM ones because I now have a charger I can hook to another battery to top up between races, rather than go the whole weekend on one charge like I used to.

L.A.B. said:

Note that there is a difference between 'Lithium-Ion' and 'Lithium iron' (phosphate) batteries:

https://www.newcastlesys.com/blog/lithium-ion-vs-lithium-iron-batteries

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My understanding is that LiFePO4 batteries are a type of Lithium Ion battery.
All of the various types make power by using ions of Lithium.
The article above also leads one to believe that the LiFePO4 batteries are non combustible, actually stating the same info twice to make that point-
"Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible in the event of mishandling during charge or discharge, they are more stable under overcharge or short circuit conditions and they can withstand high temperatures without decomposing"
"When abuse does occur, the phosphate based cathode material will not burn and is not prone to thermal runaway."

We know that they burn quite nicely, so I'm not sure about the information above.

Re the Ionic nature of LiFePO4-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

&here

https://www.gartner.com/it-glossary/lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4-batteries

Some people didn't like hydraulic brakes when Lockheed first patented them in 1917, preferring the 'reliable' mechanical brakes.

It's time for lead/acid to fade away...like mechanical brakes.

MexicoMike said:

Some people didn't like hydraulic brakes when Lockheed first patented them in 1917, preferring the 'reliable' mechanical brakes.

It's time for lead/acid to fade away...like mechanical brakes.

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Maybe it is, but the replacement needs to be an improvement in safety and reliability, not just any new technology.


You haven't experienced a melted or burning LiFePO4 battery yet whereas an ever increasing number of us have. That does tend to skew one's viewpoint.
I have had the experience of riding then crashing a burning motorcycle just once, not interested in a repeat.

Glen

Have to admit all this talk about combustionable batteries is a little unnerving.
On Antigravities site they only spec batteries for 1990 and newer.
And they have disclaimers about mid 80's and older regarding updating the charging system.
They obviously have a concern.

My questions to the experts are,
1. Is the Zener Diode a stable regulator that can be depended on?
2. Are the Podtronics / Tympaniums more stable than the Zener, or just different?
3. Are the Podtronics / Tympaniums equal to each other, or is one better than the other?

MichaelB said:

Have to admit all this talk about combustionable batteries is a little unnerving.
On Antigravities site they only spec batteries for 1990 and newer.
And they have disclaimers about mid 80's and older regarding updating the charging system.
They obviously have a concern.

My questions to the experts are,
1. Is the Zener Diode a stable regulator that can be depended on?
2. Are the Podtronics / Tympaniums more stable than the Zener, or just different?
3. Are the Podtronics / Tympaniums equal to each other, or is one better than the other?

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They are just different. They are all shunt regulators.
None of the systems available for a Norton are capable of providing full charge on a Li battery.
That is probably a good thing as far as life of a Li battery, but not such a good thing as far as the reserve capacity of a Li battery.
A Li battery works fine on a Norton particularly if it is used with LED lighting and electronic ignition.

My bike uses a custom 38 amp three phase alternator and a heavy duty pass regulator designed for modern bikes. It is rated for a Li battery.

MexicoMike said:

Some people didn't like hydraulic brakes when Lockheed first patented them in 1917, preferring the 'reliable' mechanical brakes.

It's time for lead/acid to fade away...like mechanical brakes.

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And cable clutches

worntorn said:

Maybe it is, but the replacement needs to be an improvement in safety and reliability, not just any new technology.


You haven't experienced a melted or burning LiFePO4 battery yet whereas an ever increasing number of us have. That does tend to skew one's viewpoint.
I have had the experience of riding then crashing a burning motorcycle just once, not interested in a repeat.

Glen

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You are right, I have not. But if I based using a flooded battery on having had a bad experience, I would never use a lead acid battery either. A battery explosion is not all that rare and I have dealt with them several times...

Metallic lithium is more dangerous than sodium when water is involved..

As some may have discerned, I've had good luck with gel batteries. I tried an AGM, but it didn't last as long as a gel in the same machine.

The SS clone is all LED with a Boyer and a Mk III charging system with a Podtronics regulator, so I may be tempted to try a Shorai at some time in the future, but not until it's current gel battery is no longer serviceable.

comnoz said:

And cable clutches

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Not to mention kickstarters.

So far I've used four different size Shorai's in five different bikes, three of them Nortons, and had one failure. The first Shorai I bought was back when they only had a one year warranty, and it died (no heat issues, just died) just days after the one year period expired. Since then, I've had no issues with them. One is in a MK3 Commando, one in a 961 Commando, one in a Rotax powered MZ, and one in a Yamaha powered MZ. It would be only fair to point out that none of them get a lot of mileage on them, as opposed to folks like comnoz, who regularly does multi-thousand mile trips, and that might have an influence on durability. I have the special Shorai charger, but mostly the batteries are just charged by the bikes' stock charging systems. Mostly I only use the Shorai charger if I'm planning on storing the battery for a long period with no use.

Just my experience, not a recommendation. Other folks' problems with them do make me nervous, and I might switch back to lead-acid batteries of some sort in the future (or maybe not).

Ken

I just spent $206 USD on a 21 AH Shorai for my e-start. If anybody can show me an alternative I'm all ears.

storm42 said:

I see a few on here use Lithium Iron batteries as do I on my race bike. This Ducati, yes there is one there, pulled off the track at the weekend and whilst my wife did the modern thing and whipped out the camera phone and took the pic, I tried to help and I am in the middle of the rather acrid smoke trying to get the fairing off.


There was no fire just smoke but that might not have been the case, the battery had popped a plug out of the top and all that smoke was coming out of a 3/8" hole, quite spectacular.


The battery was far too hot to touch and now I am re-evaluating my use of LiFe although I don't have a charging circuit on the bike.


View attachment 11130

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Hello, and good afternnon from the sunny and extremly hot Germany,
yes, the same thing happend to me too, some months (or even a year ago?)
Well, what happend? I was on a short- test ride on the Autobahn. The average speed was approximately 80 - 90 MPH. As the trip should have been only short I left the Autobahn at the next (br-)exit (laugh). When I stopped at the next traffic light I saw smoke exiting from the left side cover. Immediately I stopped the engine, took the cover off and saw the batterie smoking like hell and also blowing some kind of a fluid all over the place. I pulled the wires off the battery, burned my fingers, and took the battery out, and burning the fingers even more. Even when I removed the battery it was still smoking and spraying the fluid arround for at least another hour as long as I was waiting for my brother to give me a lift home.
After first investigation I found nothing wrong with the electrics but I suspected a malfunction of the rectifier, which was a real cheap thing from EBAY. So I just fitted a new battery, this time simple lead- gel version. The bike ran as ever, but this time I installed my voltage- meter which showed between 15 and 16 Volts (at just 1500 RPM). When reving up it even showed something like 17 - 18 Volts. This is absolutely poision for a lithium- iron battery, so I bought a podtronics rectifier and here we have the answer. This rectifier showed up 14,2 to 14,5 Volts and not a bit more.
After that experience I gave up my trials with Lithium Iron batteries and went back to the simple oldschool lead- gel battery without any problems since I use the podtronics rectifier.
I hope that this answers all questions about using Lithium- Iron batteries.
Best Regards
Klaus
P.S I should add that the Lithium Iron Battery was a rather cheap JMT- item

A lead acid battery would have done the same thing or worse with such a huge overcharge - boiled the acid and burst the battery/blown out the caps/exploded with any sort of electrical spark due to the hydrogen being produced.

Sounds like you were lucky to have a Lithium battery in there with that defective regulator.

Hello,
The point I was going to make is: Always, if you change to Lithium- Iron batteries, check the voltage of your charging system. I suspect that there are a lot of regulators arround which supply my stated voltages (at least 16 Volts) and you don't know it.
Best Regards
Klaus

MexicoMike said:

A lead acid battery would have done the same thing or worse with such a huge overcharge - boiled the acid and burst the battery/blown out the caps/exploded with any sort of electrical spark due to the hydrogen being produced.

Sounds like you were lucky to have a Lithium battery in there with that defective regulator.

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I agree. An under voltage may lead to an inconvenience, whereas an over voltage may lead to a catastrophe.

I had the good Podtronics regs on the two bikes that had the Lithium Iron batteries fail.
Wasn't enough.
Point taken that lead acid batteries can blow up when overcharged or even from being charged on a quick charger.
It's the Hydrogen coming off above that battery that can be a problem.
In reality though, given the number of lead acid batteries used, it's a fairly rare occurrence.
At present I have 35 lead acid batteries in use around this farm and have used, abused and wore out hundreds over the decades. My father had a heavy equipment/road building business with about 25 pieces of heavy equipment, 5 Caterpillar D8s, Euclid Twin engine Scrapers and such. They used and went through probably a thousand or so lead acid batteries over the years with many different charging systems.

Total number of exploded, burning or melted lead acid batteries in all of that usage = 0

I was an early adopter of Lithium batteries.
It took awhile to figure out where the problem was as there wasn't a lot of info on them, other than the usual manufacturers hype.
The manufacturer's recommendation of minimum 13.1 volts at idle came much later.
Apparently they had to learn that by putting the batteries out in the marketplace.
I was told by the supplier that the batteries would work well with any working 12 volt charging system. This turned out to be false.
The admission that the Li PB/Eq rating was actually 3 times greater than the true stored charge (at full 14.4v,) also came later.


When it looks like the Li with old bike problems are truly solved I'll give them another try.
I would also like them to be more forthcoming with their labelling.


Glen

worntorn said:

Total number of exploded, burning or melted lead acid batteries in all of that usage = 0


I would also like them to be more forthcoming with their labelling.


Glen

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Same number of lead acid explosions for me. I have seen a couple swollen from overcharging.

Truth in advertising? but then they couldn't stay in business...

I saw an exploded Deka 819 that blew the battery compartment apart and sprayed battery acid all over the entire area. That was caused by an un-attended battery charger that went wrong. It's one reason I never leave a battery charger on an unattended vehicle (one that isn't in your garage that you can check on every few days).

Yeah, I know, somebody's going to tell me they've been doing that for years with no problems... As I have said many times - we do what we are comfortable with!