Lithium batteries

seattle##gs

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My Shorai LFX14A2-BS12 died yesterday mostly due to a freezing spell and not keeping it charged. I looked up the price of new ones and they've gone up quite a bit. Is there a comparable lithium battery but much cheaper? Is Shorai top of the heap or are there others just as good?
 
Shorai spec is pretty good for the price. I think a cheap lithium battery is a recipe for disaster. I have had very good service using an Antigravity battery in my DIY wired Norton. Not suggesting getting an Antigravity battery to replace the Shorai since they are not cheaper, I've only been using one for 2 years, and I don't have it in a Commando. Also a similar size 8-cell Antigravity battery has a lower amp/hr rating than the Shorai you are using. The Antigravity has more cold cranking amps though. Stuck between a rock and a hard place on quality and price?
 
seattle##gs said:
My Shorai LFX14A2-BS12 died yesterday mostly due to a freezing spell and not keeping it charged. I looked up the price of new ones and they've gone up quite a bit. Is there a comparable lithium battery but much cheaper? Is Shorai top of the heap or are there others just as good?
Click to expand...
I don't about your actual question but do look around.

Two months ago I bought two of the LFX18 size from Walmart. They totaled $90 less than Amazon at the time. Today I checked and Amazon is $159 and Walmart is $178 for your battery. People on eBay selling your battery new are all more expensive than Amazon. Direct from Shorai they are $176+shipping. Many of the big general bike sellers are not even listing them. So, if I were buying it today, it would be Amazon.

there is a used on eBay for $99+shipping and he will take offers: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1664885620...8E4vCwU+bWPmGSVKQq3yxnxDRb|tkp:Bk9SR4CpifCoYw

I don't know the seller so I cannot say if he is good. I would not pay more than $95s delivered for used!
 
Check out NOCO products. I recently sprung for a new battery, and decided to buy a NOCO “Genius” charger to go with it. I thought I’d try it on the old battery ( a Skyrich) and after a few cycles it seems to have revived it.
 
I stayed with Lead - Acid.
I have two L - A Mtrcyl. batts. that are over 4 years old and still hold the juice as new.
I keep them both on maintenance chargers when not riding.

Pricey?
The average price of one metric ton of battery-grade lithium carbonate was $17,000 compared to $2,425 for lead in North American and EU markets and raw materials now account for over half of battery cost.
Less than 1 percent of Lithium-ion batteries get recycled in the US and EU compared to 99 percent of lead-acid batteries.

Just a small example of the extensive reasoning noting why Lithium based electrical storage is so expensive and will continue to rise in cost.
Even as the drawbacks of Lithium Ion harvesting, storage and usage becomes more exposed, not to mention the environmental impact, its usage continues.
 
Lineslinger said:
I stayed with Lead - Acid.
I have two L - A Mtrcyl. batts. that are over 4 years old and still hold the juice as new.
I keep them both on maintenance chargers when not riding.

Pricey?
The average price of one metric ton of battery-grade lithium carbonate was $17,000 compared to $2,425 for lead in North American and EU markets and raw materials now account for over half of battery cost.
Less than 1 percent of Lithium-ion batteries get recycled in the US and EU compared to 99 percent of lead-acid batteries.

Just a small example of the extensive reasoning noting why Lithium based electrical storage is so expensive and will continue to rise in cost.
Even as the drawbacks of Lithium Ion harvesting, storage and usage becomes more exposed, not to mention the environmental impact, its usage continues.
Click to expand...
This is worth a watch:

Looks like Lithium recycling is starting to make sense.
 
I wouldn't buy a used battery of any type. However, I have trust issues.

I use a Motorpower GTPower 2000 charger/maintainer. Without using the charger for months my Antigravity 401 battery is at 14.28V. Every time I've used the charger it charges for about 3 minutes and then goes into fully charged maintenance mode. I don't have any parasitic draw at all when the key is off though. The battery should last a long time.

The TriSpark MOSFET rec/reg is doing a great job when the engine is running. It does not overcharge or undercharge a lithium iron battery even though it is not designed for use with one. Both of those poor charging scenarios will kill the battery.
 
cliffa said:
Check out NOCO products. I recently sprung for a new battery, and decided to buy a NOCO “Genius” charger to go with it. I thought I’d try it on the old battery ( a Skyrich) and after a few cycles it seems to have revived it.
Click to expand...
I do have a NOCO charger, it covers every type of battery. These lithium batteries have taken a big jump in price in the last few years. I much prefer them but I might have to settle for an agm battery, about the same price I paid for the Shorai. The lithium batteries are the only ones that will keep a charge of 13.5 volts.
 
It's the fires that concern me.
A bit of battery weight saved vs a potential fire hazard seems a very bad trade off.
Lithium batteries are now the #1 cause of Fire fatalities in our city (Vancouver, BC)
Most are caused by E bike charging gone wrong.
The Ebikes use Lifepo and other types of Lithium based batteries. They are all capable of great heat.
This bad one in Brooklyn hit the news today

Fire that killed 3 in Brooklyn caused by lithium-ion battery: FDNY

The blaze killed three generations of family members.
ny1.com ny1.com
 
worntorn said:
It's the fires that concern me.
A bit of battery weight saved vs a potential fire hazard seems a very bad trade off.
Lithium batteries are now the #1 cause of Fire fatalities in our city (Vancouver, BC)
Most are caused by E bike charging gone wrong.
The Ebikes use Lifepo and other types of Lithium based batteries. They are all capable of great heat.
This bad one in Brooklyn hit the news today

Fire that killed 3 in Brooklyn caused by lithium-ion battery: FDNY

The blaze killed three generations of family members.
ny1.com ny1.com
Click to expand...
Thank you . I have a now dead Nokia . Where can I dump it in Toronto . My e- bike has a Lithium batt. in my e-bike which now scares me . I will only use Lead-acid in my Mk 111 now .
 
We have a dying Samsung that started getting too hot to hold last week. It's going to the electronic recycling depot soon. In the meantime it's outside in a metal bin.
With the ebikes (or any lithium battery) it seems to be unattended overnight charging that is the most dangerous.
Perhaps charge it during the day or whenever you can keep an eye on it?
 
Too many cheap lithium batteries about skimping on the BMS, get the right BMS when building a battery and its not a problem but how do you know what BMS is inside that black plastic box.

www.nytimes.com

How New York Plans to Regulate E-Bikes in the Wake of Deadly Fires

Two new trade-in programs are aimed at preventing future fires, and a new law bans the sale of e-bikes and e-scooters that have not been certified for safety.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
Schwany said:
I wouldn't buy a used battery of any type. However, I have trust issues.

I use a Motorpower GTPower 2000 charger/maintainer. Without using the charger for months my Antigravity 401 battery is at 14.28V. Every time I've used the charger it charges for about 3 minutes and then goes into fully charged maintenance mode. I don't have any parasitic draw at all when the key is off though. The battery should last a long time.

The TriSpark MOSFET rec/reg is doing a great job when the engine is running. It does not overcharge or undercharge a lithium iron battery even though it is not designed for use with one. Both of those poor charging scenarios will kill the battery.
Click to expand...
I have the Shorai battery that I purchased from Matt (CNW) when I installed his Estart conversion.This battery has been flawless for over 6 years now. I also have a Shorai charger that I have used only once and after only a couple of minutes it goes to full charge. I check the static voltage after every ride and always get a reading of 14.2-14.3 volts,only less when using my electric vest. I understand the opinions of the guys that don’t like them but I will keep using them.Just my 2 cents.
Mike
 
Mike, it sounds like you have it set up properly so there shouldn't be a problem.
It's the charging that really seems to be where the danger is. With e bikes and power tools they are constantly being drained then put on charge, usually unattended and usually at night.
The photos I have of melted or burning lithium batteries in motorcycles are all taken out on the road. Presumably something went wrong while running, either overcharge, an electrical system short or damage to the battery case. The rider always got a bit of warning, some smoke and heat, which tells you to stop and get off.

Fifteen years ago when I installed a couple of Lithium batteries in old bikes, I thought they were fabulous little things. I didn't understand the charging voltage requirements and neither did the seller.
That didn't end well!

Nowadays I'm trying to reduce some of my risky behavior.
Then last summer I went for an innocent walk to the back of the place and nearly died in a cow attack!

Glen
 
marshg246 said:
This is worth a watch:

Looks like Lithium recycling is starting to make sense.
Click to expand...

Interesting Greg.
Looking a little deeper reveals this brand new, heavily govt. subsidized industry is being stifled on development from a lot of directions including the EPA.
Ghastly expensive thus adding to the cost of a Lithium storage offering, battery or other.

From LI Cycle:
UPDATE 22 DECEMBER 2023:Li-Cycle, a Canadian battery and electronics recycling company IEEE Spectrum reported on in 2021, was recently anticipating the construction of a major new recycling facility on the grounds of what used to be the Eastman Kodak complex in Rochester, N.Y, that would have processed 25 metric kilotons of spent battery material a year. But Li-Cycle announced in October 2023 that construction of the Rochester facility is on hold. The pause on the Rochester Hub project, says a company spokesperson, gives Li-Cycle the opportunity to better phase the project with the current timing and evolution of the battery recycling and EV markets and to optimize construction and contracting strategy.

spectrum.ieee.org

Lithium-Ion Battery Recycling Finally Takes Off in North America and Europe

Li-Cycle, Northvolt, and Ganfeng Lithium are among those building recycling plants, spurred by environmental and supply-chain concerns
spectrum.ieee.org spectrum.ieee.org

L I electrical storage will find its place. I am wary of the immediate "fix-all" supported so heavily by a politically motivated govt. Initiative.
The discipline of time and analysis need to exhibit its influence me thinks.
At this moment the single most preferred method to extinguish a LI battery fire nationwide, in say a Tesla?
Let it burn itself out. I've watched a Tesla cook, another reason I won't use L I in my bike...but to each their own.👍
 
Last edited:
YING said:
I have the Shorai battery that I purchased from Matt (CNW) when I installed his Estart conversion.This battery has been flawless for over 6 years now. I also have a Shorai charger that I have used only once and after only a couple of minutes it goes to full charge. I check the static voltage after every ride and always get a reading of 14.2-14.3 volts,only less when using my electric vest. I understand the opinions of the guys that don’t like them but I will keep using them.Just my 2 cents.
Mike
Click to expand...
I went with the Antigravity 401 battery for the small size and weight savings. Shorai batteries have too large a footprint for where I want the battery installed or I would have considered one.

I like Lithium LiFePO4 batteries without question. They are a good choice for a kick start bike with safe wiring and an adequate charging system.
 
Lineslinger said:
Interesting Greg.
Looking a little deeper reveals this brand new, heavily govt. subsidized industry is being stifled on development from a lot of directions including the EPA.
Ghastly expensive thus adding to the cost of a Lithium storage offering, battery or other.

From LI Cycle:
UPDATE 22 DECEMBER 2023:Li-Cycle, a Canadian battery and electronics recycling company IEEE Spectrum reported on in 2021, was recently anticipating the construction of a major new recycling facility on the grounds of what used to be the Eastman Kodak complex in Rochester, N.Y, that would have processed 25 metric kilotons of spent battery material a year. But Li-Cycle announced in October 2023 that construction of the Rochester facility is on hold. The pause on the Rochester Hub project, says a company spokesperson, gives Li-Cycle the opportunity to better phase the project with the current timing and evolution of the battery recycling and EV markets and to optimize construction and contracting strategy.

spectrum.ieee.org

Lithium-Ion Battery Recycling Finally Takes Off in North America and Europe

Li-Cycle, Northvolt, and Ganfeng Lithium are among those building recycling plants, spurred by environmental and supply-chain concerns
spectrum.ieee.org spectrum.ieee.org

L I electrical storage will find its place. I am wary of the immediate "fix-all" supported so heavily by a politically motivated govt. Initiative.
The discipline and influence of time and analysis need to exhibit its influence as well me thinks.
At this moment the single most preferred method to extinguish a LI battery fire nationwide, in say a Tesla?
Let it burn itself out. I've watched a Tesla cook, another reason I won't use L I in my bike...but to each their own.👍
Click to expand...
Yes, without getting political, it does appear there's a massive push to EV and therefore batteries and a massive set of roadblocks hampering the entire industry.

To me, given the cost of getting Lithium from nature, recycling it should be a money maker is industry is allowed to develop it.
 
A few things..... lithium,... It may be better than anything, but it's not the devil I know. Like any newer technology, regardless of what the manufacturer says, the first years of use are the ways the bugs get worked out, AND the people who use them LEARN the proper care and feeding....

Once a new technology eclipses the older technology, the old technology goes away unless there's some other advantage that the old technology retains that the new technology dismisses as an important feature. I still use a lead/acid battery and I use a maintenance charger on it. So as a battery goes, it does what it is needed to do safely and I don't live in fear of a new technology that I wouldn't be quite sure whether the bugs were worked out of or not....

*Also, I can melt down the lead to .357 shaped cylinders for my bear country side arm or the zombie apocalypse.... 🤣
 
I had an Aliant ylp on my harrier and it worked a treat, way cheaper than Shorai. I bought it as I fitted an E start on theharrier and had very limited room for a battery
 
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