Lithium batteries

concours said:

Batteries sulfate when they are DISCHARGED, not when they are cold.

I have 5 motos and a Jeep in unheated storage, layed up for four months as we speek. Well below zero Fahrenheit will occur a few times. No sulfation.


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Lead/Acid batteries discharge faster when cold. Wonderful that you found lead/acid that don't mind sitting without charging, especially in the cold. Where did you find a lead/acid battery for your Jeep?

marshg246 said:

Lead/Acid batteries discharge faster when cold. Wonderful that you found lead/acid that don't mind sitting without charging, especially in the cold. Where did you find a lead/acid battery for your Jeep?

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Never claimed batteries do not need charging during layup.

Um, Napa sold me that particular FLA battery, but they can be found at tens of thousands of other auto parts stores.

My comment was about SULFATION.

concours said:

Never claimed batteries do not need charging during layup.

Um, Napa sold me that particular FLA battery, but they can be found at tens of thousands of other auto parts stores.

My comment was about SULFATION.

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Yes, I realize you focused on that one word. Wish I had just said "go bad". If those five bikes you have inside have their fuses installed, please knock on a little wood - having bikes inside with power available can hurt real bad - especially those with 50-year-old wiring.

marshg246 said:

Yes, I realize you focused on that one word. Wish I had just said "go bad". If those five bikes you have inside have their fuses installed, please knock on a little wood - having bikes inside with power available can hurt real bad - especially those with 50-year-old wiring.

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And brand new wiring as well.

Why do mice, rats, squirrels etc. seem so intent on chewing the wiring in your car, motorcycle, ATV, Ebike, Escooter, farm machinery etc.?
Most all of the insulation used in mass production wiring is partially composed of soy oil.

That's why mice love it.
Lotsa' fires too, thousands per year.
On a global scale.

I raised holy hell with Honda of North America. I got all the way up the ladder to the VP too. This after two Honda ATVS were trashed by mice chewing the wiring harness's into oblivion, as well as certain components on a CASE combine.
Repair costs were estimated at $1,400, per bike.
Honda NA would not admit to any fault but they did send me a wiring wrap impregnated with pepper oil...normally priced at $60 per roll. You needed to wear gloves to install the stuff. And don't let it get on your skin.
It worked too, in all the places I could apply it.

Personally I do not believe every person who employs or installs a LI battery is a moron utilizing Chinese junk.
Scientific analysis and research says something far more informative.

From the IAFF: Basic analysis shows that lithium-ion cells undergo a process called thermal runaway, which results in a sharp increase of battery cell temperature and pressure, accompanied by the release of flammable gas. The flammable gas can ignite from the battery’s high temperature, resulting in a quick fire that’s hard to put out and emits toxic fumes.
The International Association of Fire Fighters guidelines on an LI fire?
No method in play to extinguish it. Let it burn itself out, too dangerous to try and extinguish.
Ever seen a Tesla fire?

Yes I have. Even though Tesla has stats to show that these fires almost never occur, my wife and I witnessed two Tesla fires on two separate same route trips last summer.
This was on a Coquihalla Highway hill known as " The Smasher" on the Syndicated TV series " Highway Thru Hell" If you happen to be a fan of this show, this is the hill that Al Quiring makes lots of money from with his big green Triaxle Kenworth Tow truck.
The first Tesla was parked off to the side about half way up the hill and burning with a briliiant green colour. A family, presumably the occupants from the car, were standing a safe distance off watching in horror.
About two months later we made the same trip and another Tesla was parked higher up, not much left of it and just a bit of smoke still coming off. There wasn't anyone around for that one. From the way the metal was twisted you could see that the heat had been very extreme.
Both trips were done during periods of hot summer weather. My assumption is that the requirement for sustained power on long steep hill combined with power needed for AC set off thermal runaway in the batteries, but that is only a guess. It seems a strange coincidence that two Teslas would catch fire in roughly the same spot and in about the same weather.

Glen

Lithium batteries are in keyless entry devices and a lot of other things. Better wear fire retardant undies to protect the twig and berries.

Was reading a little about lithium battery car fires and it sounded like the majority are caused by shorts after crashes and not spontaneous. Could be fact spin by the major players in the lithium battery cartel. I didn't read that much though since I have a life I need to live, so I only got a very small sampling of the dangers of lithium batteries.

My key fob uses a 225 ma battery @ 3 volts. When new there is .675 watt hours of power available there.
I'm not worried about that. My dog farts more heat than that.
A Tesla X has a 100 kwh battery. This is approximately 150,000 times as much power as the key fob battery holds. There is some potential for heat with the Tesla battery.

Glen

worntorn said:

My key fob uses a 225 ma battery @ 3 volts. When new there is .675 watt hours of power available there.
I'm not worried about that. My dog farts more heat than that.
A Tesla X has a 100 kwh battery. This is approximately 150,000 times as much power as the key fob battery holds. There is some potential for heat with the Tesla battery.

Glen

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Obviously, I was kidding about the keyfob. Lithium has been around for a while in small batteries. I've never seen one cause a fire at my house. Although Seattle made putting batteries in the garbage illegal this month sighting, they "could" cause a fire.

I swapped out the big assed battery myself in one of the Prius autos we have. It's old nickel-metal hydride tech, but big enough to kill somebody and probably cause a fire under the right circumstances. It was a little intimidating during removal, but not so much during the install. I figured I was a master mechanic after taking it out. lol

Being in Seattle where a lot of 6 figure software engineers and millionaires live, I see many Tesla cars on the road when I get out and drive. I've never seen one on fire anywhere in the statewide real world. I do not go looking for car fire videos on the internet though. Coming back from the Palm Desert in California two weeks ago I did see a flatbed big rig trailer on fire. The automatic brake release must have locked up after getting off the brakes and the big drums got a little warm apparently. Big plumes of tire smoke and some orange flames.

We see lots of Teslas driving around on flat ground in Vancouver. In fact there are more Teslas per capita in Vancouver than anywhere else in Canada. I haven't witnessed any of those burning.
We were just a but surprised to see a burning Tesla on two out of three trips we made on that steep mountain highway last year.

Glen

There have been cases of electronic cigarettes on charge, going up in flames, prompting visits from the local fire brigade. Smoking kills...

Lineslinger said:

From the IAFF: Basic analysis shows that lithium-ion cells undergo a process called thermal runaway, which results in a sharp increase of battery cell temperature and pressure, accompanied by the release of flammable gas. The flammable gas can ignite from the battery’s high temperature, resulting in a quick fire that’s hard to put out and emits toxic fumes.

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There's a big difference between Lithium Ion batteries and Lithium Iron (LiFePO4). Shorai (and other of the better brand of motorcycle lithium batteries) are LiFePO4. Think most of the lithium fires are lithium ion batteries (including Tesla)

I am not scared by isolated incidents

All rechargeable Lithium batteries are Lithium Ion.
An Ion is simply a charged particle.
As far as the story that it's the other types of Lithium batteries that burn while Lifepo4 is safe, that isn't so.
I have lots of photos of burned up batteries and bikes, mostly Shorai LiFePo4 as they are the most common. There is a burned up Antigravity or two in there.
Ive posted some of the photos as well as burn videos before and Im sure folks dont need to see them again, especially if you are happy with your Li battery.
The fact is, they do sometimes get hot and even catch fire. This most often occurs when something is wrong in the charging system, ie overcharging or a short etc.
Get the right setup for Lithium and keep it healthy seems to be the answer.

I'm not that perfect on maintenance. Things go wrong on my bikes now and then, so I'm back on acid.

Glen

TomU said:

There's a big difference between Lithium Ion batteries and Lithium Iron (LiFePO4). Shorai (and other of the better brand of motorcycle lithium batteries) are LiFePO4. Think most of the lithium fires are lithium ion batteries (including Tesla)

Lithium Iron Phosphate Vs. Lithium-Ion: Differences and Advantages

Advances in battery technologies has placed lithium chemistry at the fore front for being the best power source for high energy use in portable devices.

blog.epectec.com

I am not scared by isolated incidents

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The link posted is over 4 years old.
There's a big difference between those observations and the latest studies.
I am not scared of isolated incidents either.
I cannot find the post where someone said they were.

worntorn said:

All rechargeable Lithium batteries are Lithium Ion.
An Ion is simply a charged particle.
As far as the story that it's the other types of Lithium batteries that burn while Lifepo4 is safe, that isn't so.
I have lots of photos of burned up batteries and bikes, mostly Shorai LiFePo4 as they are the most common. There is a burned up Antigravity or two in there.
Ive posted some of the photos as well as burn videos before and Im sure folks dont need to see them again, especially if you are happy with your Li battery.
The fact is, they do sometimes get hot and even catch fire. This most often occurs when something is wrong in the charging system, ie overcharging or a short etc.
Get the right setup for Lithium and keep it healthy seems to be the answer.

I'm not that perfect on maintenance. Things go wrong on my bikes now and then, so I'm back on acid.

Glen

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I've never seen written that the LiFePo4 is "safe", but it is well documented that they are safer than the other five major types today.

I have seen, and documented here, a car burn up with an AGM battery - does that make AGM batteries unsafe?

Long ago, I was splattered with acid when a FLA blew its sides due to a short circuit - does that make FLA batteries unsafe?

IMHO:

1) Leaving any Lithium battery on a charger of any kind is not a good idea, and it is unneeded if the fuse is removed.
2) Using any Lithium battery with the stock bridge and Zener is a bad idea. When working properly, they are compatible and safe. If a Zener fails open (the normal failure), a fire will likely occur, especially when running high RPMs.
3) Except for the bikes that I've hand re-wired, I do not trust any of the old bikes with the fuse installed when not in use. And, even on those I've wired, I leave the fuse out when parked for a while as a simple safety precaution.

The claim that Lifepo4 batteries do not burn has been made in more than one informational type internet article. Of course it is totally incorrect, but helps the sellers side no end and gets repeated ad nauseum.
These are often the same articles that go with the " Lithium Iron is a totally different battery from Lithium Ion" nonsense.
Unfortunately this misinformation gets passed along and keeps popping up, as above.

So once again, all types of rechargeable Lithium batteries are Lithium Ion.
Some might be more dangerous than others but all are capable of burning like a blow torch.
Don't make me show the videos!

I just reread some manufacturer claims- wow what pack of lies.
No wonder the fellow in the one test video was disheartened. He had been told that the battery was " incombustible" . It turned into a flame thrower just by poking a couple of holes in it.


Glen

In fairness, I doubt the user instructions include where to poke holes in your battery,

Mart UK said:

In fairness, I doubt the user instructions include where to poke holes in your battery,

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Having no desire to use a lithium battery in my Mk3 (mainly due to cost/charging complexity and the safety aspect) i still use lithium batterys in my phone, power tools, computer tablet etc That said, the same year i bought my Mk3 (10 yrs ago) i had the rectifier/regulator fail, not by not charging but by feeding AC into the harness at quite some volts, this killed the EI (a pazon) and cooked the AGM battery. When the removed battery had cooled down it looked like the insides had been sucked out, It didn't leak or burst which impressed me to its safety margin aspect. Needless to say i fitted another AGM battery along with a better Rec/reg unit. I doubt that any Lithium battery would withstand a failure of this sort. I never use a battery maintainer (optimate and the like). I use my Mk3 all year round, less in winter obviously, but still get out on fine dry days.
I can see the attraction for using a lithium battery for its small size if your bikes looks are improved by hiding the battery somewhere. But for a relatively standard machine it is not worth it and as regarding the weight aspect, yes they are lighter, but could you tell that by riding it? just go for a good dump before riding.

"I can see the attraction for using a lithium battery for its small size if your bikes looks are improved by hiding the battery somewhere. But for a relatively standard machine it is not worth it and as regarding the weight aspect, yes they are lighter, but could you tell that by riding it? just go for a good dump before riding."



Exactly.

Mart UK said:

In fairness, I doubt the user instructions include where to poke holes in your battery,

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In an accident?
The manufacturer's claim was that the battery is " incombustible and poses zero risk"
That's far from the truth.
Also, popping a hole in gets things going very quickly but it is just one way to get fire from LifePo4. Overcharging or severe discharge were the causes of all the Shorai bike fires I've read about, at least where cause was known.
So not " incombustible" at all.
I'm just saying that the manufacturer's claims are bogus and dangerous.
Imagine if gasoline was a new product and we were all informed by the sellers that it was " incombustible until in the engine" or similar. That wouldn't end well for some of us.
Manufacturers should give accurate information about their product, especially the safety aspect.

Shorai doesn't make this " incombustible " claim. They seem to be one company that gives out accurate info about charging requirements as well.








Glen

This is turning into an oil thread. I will continue to use my lithium batteries without worry