Lithium batteries

Vernon240 said:
So after my lithium batter failure at the weekend, I thought it was worth a post, as there was chatter on the pictures thread.

A bit of a background. The battery cradle on my 961 had cracked, not only on the battery side, but the coil pack side, so I welded reinforcements on both sides, as well as welding up the cracks. I decided to go with a Lithium battery and I thought the lightness would be of benefit. I've been running his for around a year, making sure it was connected to the charger whenever it was in the garage, keeping it in storage mode. I just checked my receipt and it's dated 22 March 2021....so more than a year I guess.

I also bought the specific charger for this battery....which I was not overly keen on, as the connector isn't locking. I guess no real issue normally if the battery is easily accessible, but on our bikes, you can't easily access the battery, so you have to leave the lead attached.

Things have all been fine to date. I came to start the bike last Friday to go to the Norton rally and nothing. Dead. I did not notice if the status of the lights on the charger, however. I do know we had a power cut during the week...so maybe the charger did not come back on? I did not think to check. All my other chargers..I have 3 other vehicles on battery tenders...were fine.

Measured the voltage at the Norton charge connector at the tail of the bike. 4v. There's my problem. Connected the charger and both lights alternating then settles to green flashing, indicating charging. Left it for probably an hour, up to 12v and the bikes starts a few times, no issue. Happy days! Get my gear, off I go to Brooklands! Park up and Find MrBikerJon, who has bravely ridden his Domi from the hinterlands of Wales. Speak to the guys at the museum and ask if we can bring the bikes around to the Campbell gate and access the main site, as our bikes would not look out of place. They kindly agree and we start the bikes and off we go...it was maybe a mile or so to the other gate. Parked up, had lunch, looked around the museum. I was hoping after an hour on the road, voltage varying between 13 and 14v ish on the display, the battery would have had a good charge. We were at the museum maybe three hours, and after some photo's went to start the bike, but just a loud clicking sound, although turn on showed 12v on the display..but when trying to start, everything went blank. A separate volt meter would have helped here, but I suspect when I tried to start it, the current draw pulled the voltage way below 12v....10 and below is bad...indicating a bad battery.

After calling the AA, we got it stated and was advised not to stop until we got home...so off we went. Another hour or so on the road, got home. Stopped the bike. Immediately tried to restart. 12v shown then..same symtoms, display blank and loud clicking.

During the time with the AA guy, called our lord and savior Stu who gave me some points to check...removing and replacing the main fuse may have helped, but everything looked fine, but he advised just get a standard battery, as the reg/recs on the 961's may not be of the best quality (he may have used other terms, but his was the gist!). I bought the advised Yuasa ytz14s, installed in the bike and went happy on my way for the rest of the weekend, with no further issues.

The battery in question:

View attachment 99462

View attachment 99463

the charger

View attachment 99464

and the connector I don't like:

View attachment 99465

So, not sure what the warranty is (just checked - 1 year from the site I purchased from). Was the 14v I saw on my display too much? Could the power cut have caused an issue? I don't know. Right now my dalliance with Lithium batteries is at and end, as the Shorai is not cheap....currently £229.00 plus specific charger. I won't be tripping over myself to buy another!
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I've had exactly teh same experiences as you - on my 3rd replacement battery and going to a standard Yuasa. The Shorai products might be lightweaight but trickle charge connections and lifespan are not reliable on our bikes.
 
The only two lithium batteries I would consider using at the moment are the versions from Air Batt and Earthx that have the low voltage protection and the individual cell management system, these are a more protective over the standard systems on nearly all the other batteries out there, they also are not to fussed what they are charged with as the cell management corrects what is needed for its cell. So far this year I have heard of more failures of Lithium batteries than months that have passed since Christmas.
 
SimonPW said:
I've had exactly teh same experiences as you - on my 3rd replacement battery and going to a standard Yuasa. The Shorai products might be lightweaight but trickle charge connections and lifespan are not reliable on our bikes.
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Hey Simon, sux that you‘re having this difficulty.

I wonder though, how many satisfied owners there are operating with the Shorai battery and Shorai BMS, as opposed to those who have had poor experiences. It is generally the latter that come to the forum of course.

My experience completely contradicts your own. IMO you’ve got to be careful and deliberate with the process and the charger if you want the best chance of longevity - If you are, the 961 loves those extra CCA’s. Turn key first button start every time for me. When I switch my garage light off each night, I first check the BMS is happily sat on ‘store’. I ride only when the full ‘charge’ sequence has been achieved - immediately before I ride. Get home - cool down - back to ‘store’. Of course the unknown is the extent of the parasitic drain on each bike.
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
Hey Simon, sux that you‘re having this difficulty.

I wonder though, how many satisfied owners there are operating with the Shorai battery and Shorai BMS, as opposed to those who have had poor experiences. It is generally the latter that come to the forum of course.

My experience completely contradicts your own. IMO you’ve got to be careful and deliberate with the process and the charger if you want the best chance of longevity - If you are, the 961 loves those extra CCA’s. Turn key first button start every time for me. When I switch my garage light off each night, I first check the BMS is happily sat on ‘store’. I ride only when the full ‘charge’ sequence has been achieved - immediately before I ride. Get home - cool down - back to ‘store’. Of course the unknown is the extent of the parasitic drain on each bike.
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And the charge rate of each bike, as one thing that 961's are consistent at is being inconsistent 😆
A mosfet reg/rec is the way to go.
What sort of cca are people aiming for with the lithiums? I test all new batteries upon arrival, Yuasa ytz14s, and often record in excess of 250cca on a 230cca rated battery. Dynavolt batteries, found as standard on Nortons around 2018, are often around 150-175 when I see them.
 
SimonPW said:
I've had exactly teh same experiences as you - on my 3rd replacement battery and going to a standard Yuasa. The Shorai products might be lightweaight but trickle charge connections and lifespan are not reliable on our bikes.
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I still have the battery, so I may revisit this at some point. I was pretty religious about connecting the specific charger to it and making sure it was on 'store', but in my view, the actual charger connection is a really bad design. It doesn't lock in place, which I think is essential given on the 961 as they are a tad vibey and it's not easy to get to the battery once installed. If I do try again, I'll be looking at a reg/rec upgrade as Stuart recommends. The physical connection of the specific charger is still something I really don't like, so may just use s standard lithium compatible charger. I have an optimate version. the connection may have been the cause of my initial issue though.

I don't think I have a way of measuring CCA's though. I just thought it was a good way of dropping a little weight from the bike!
 
I use the smallest available lead-acid battery on my Seeley. It is about 100mm long and 30mm wide and 75mm high. . I have looked for a similar size lithium battery. The only ones I can find on the web are for movie cameras. Their terminals look difficult. There are small lithium batteries in our local supermarket for power tools, but they are 24 volt, and might stuff the Boyer.
 
Stu Bodycote said:
And the charge rate of each bike, as one thing that 961's are consistent at is being inconsistent 😆
A mosfet reg/rec is the way to go.
What sort of cca are people aiming for with the lithiums? I test all new batteries upon arrival, Yuasa ytz14s, and often record in excess of 250cca on a 230cca rated battery. Dynavolt batteries, found as standard on Nortons around 2018, are often around 150-175 when I see them.
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We use the Antigravity ATZ-10 which is 360 CCA plus has a restart so if the battery drops dead, just use the restart remote. More than enough to avoid bad starts and ECU startup issues with voltage drain.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/pr...tery/cables-parts/restart-remote-powersports/
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Hey Simon, sux that you‘re having this difficulty.

I wonder though, how many satisfied owners there are operating with the Shorai battery and Shorai BMS, as opposed to those who have had poor experiences. It is generally the latter that come to the forum of course.

My experience completely contradicts your own. IMO you’ve got to be careful and deliberate with the process and the charger if you want the best chance of longevity - If you are, the 961 loves those extra CCA’s. Turn key first button start every time for me. When I switch my garage light off each night, I first check the BMS is happily sat on ‘store’. I ride only when the full ‘charge’ sequence has been achieved - immediately before I ride. Get home - cool down - back to ‘store’. Of course the unknown is the extent of the parasitic drain on each bike.
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This is what I have found when people(customers too) complain about lithium batteries. 99% of the time its the installation or issues with some part of the charging system that is the problem, not the battery itself. Bad grounds, chaffed wiring, poor terminal connections.

We had one customer who added all sorts of accessories to his bike wiring directly to the positive terminal. The issue was that the main battery cable was then placed on top of all these ring terminals instead of directly on the post. The battery shorted from trying to arc past the gap.
 
Vernon240 said:
I still have the battery, so I may revisit this at some point. I was pretty religious about connecting the specific charger to it and making sure it was on 'store', but in my view, the actual charger connection is a really bad design. It doesn't lock in place, which I think is essential given on the 961 as they are a tad vibey and it's not easy to get to the battery once installed. If I do try again, I'll be looking at a reg/rec upgrade as Stuart recommends. The physical connection of the specific charger is still something I really don't like, so may just use s standard lithium compatible charger. I have an optimate version. the connection may have been the cause of my initial issue though.

I don't think I have a way of measuring CCA's though. I just thought it was a good way of dropping a little weight from the bike!
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The Shorai BMS charger connection to the battery is poor - press fit only with no positive connection. I taped mine in place and have never had difficulty (fingers crossed). The cable connection into the BMS is similarly poor, but manageable once in place. I think the Shorai battery and BMS are a good option as they are optimised to work together, also offering diagnostics and minor repair function. Need to be willing to set it up and monitor it effectively though, which is not ideal.

Straight from the ‘charge’ function, clock voltage shows 13.1-13.2v (ignition on - lights on - 5-10 sec warmup - start engine - no throttle). Within 60 secs voltage shows a healthy 14.5v. If you are not getting these numbers (or close) further investigation may be required. I never leave the bike off the charger for more than the period it takes for the bike to cool.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
The Shorai BMS charger connection to the battery is poor - press fit only with no positive connection. I taped mine in place and have never had difficulty (fingers crossed). The cable connection into the BMS is similarly poor, but manageable once in place. I think the Shorai battery and BMS are a good option as they are optimised to work together, also offering diagnostics and minor repair function. Need to be willing to set it up and monitor it effectively though, which is not ideal.

Straight from the ‘charge’ function, clock voltage shows 13.1-13.2v (ignition on - lights on - 5-10 sec warmup - start engine - no throttle). Within 60 secs voltage shows a healthy 14.5v. If you are not getting these numbers (or close) further investigation may be required. I never leave the bike off the charger for more than the period it takes for the bike to cool.
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Same here, tape / cable tie the connector lead in place and use that to charge / monitor / maintain.

Been using Shoria for years, lost count how many. Had one reach end of life. And even that still worked, but was showing failure warnings on the battery maintainer, and it was old, so I replaced it.
 
To my mind - I always see issues with these style of batteries when they are being used to “solve a problem”

I always think that the bike needs to be in a good electrical state BEFORE you start adding the advantages these give - rather than starting with something that isn’t right and expecting the lithium to fix it.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
The Shorai BMS charger connection to the battery is poor - press fit only with no positive connection. I taped mine in place and have never had difficulty (fingers crossed). The cable connection into the BMS is similarly poor, but manageable once in place. I think the Shorai battery and BMS are a good option as they are optimised to work together, also offering diagnostics and minor repair function. Need to be willing to set it up and monitor it effectively though, which is not ideal.

Straight from the ‘charge’ function, clock voltage shows 13.1-13.2v (ignition on - lights on - 5-10 sec warmup - start engine - no throttle). Within 60 secs voltage shows a healthy 14.5v. If you are not getting these numbers (or close) further investigation may be required. I never leave the bike off the charger for more than the period it takes for the bike to cool.
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If you are touring on the 961 with a lithium battery and no access to a charging point and the decide to have a few days off,will the bike still start.
 
MAK said:
If you are touring on the 961 with a lithium battery and no access to a charging point and the decide to have a few days off,will the bike still start.
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Don’t know MAK - haven’t tested how long it takes for the parasitic drain (through the clocks) to drop battery power to the extent that the bike won’t start. Got to be careful of course, discharging a lithium battery too far can be detrimental. I have no intention of touring on my Cafe Racer, but it’s a good point - if going for a prolonged period this would have to be accounted for. My weekend 150-200km thrash on the CR is enough time in the saddle for me. At 6ft, the cockpit is a pretty cramped environment.

Gj is right above, I guess we should all be chasing down the parasitic drain and eliminating it - it is a fault after all. Don’t want to change the clocks though and not sure how easy the re-wiring task Stu mentioned is. But I think the lithium choice is more than Gj indicates above - don’t think many would fit a lithium thinking it will ‘fix‘ the bike. What lithium does however is deliver significant CCA to a big old donk that seems to benefit from a strong healthy battery, in order to have consistent trouble free starting. It also offers a significant weight saving for the bike and for a battery box prone to cracking. This setup works for me - it may be less suitable for others.
 
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I have been using a lithium battery for five years now, when the bike is in the garage it is always connected to the maintainer. I've never had any problems and I'm happy with it
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
it is a fault after all. Don’t want to change the clocks though and not sure how easy the re-wiring task Stu mentioned is.
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Hi Stephen , Have you thought about getting the speedo repaired ? Do you remember the test I ran to see how many days I can leave my bike off charger with Shoari lithium and still start ? Didn't Gojuu repair his better than new ?
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
Gj is right above, I guess we should all be chasing down the parasitic drain and eliminating it - it is a fault after all. Don’t want to change the clocks though and not sure how easy the re-wiring task Stu mentioned is. But I think the lithium choice is more than Gj indicates above - don’t think many would fit a lithium thinking it will ‘fix‘ the bike. What lithium does however is deliver significant CCA to a big old donk that seems to benefit from a strong healthy battery, in order to have consistent trouble free starting. It also offers a significant weight saving for the bike and for a battery box prone to cracking. This setup works for me - it may be less suitable for others.
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Yes, but why does the bike need so many CCA? It’s almost a litre, sure, but its not like it’s some 11:1 hi comp thing. My view is get the bike so it starts on the weakest battery it can. A more reliable bike isn’t a bike that has a great battery with a static 13v available - it’s the bike that will start with barely 11v…..
 
Gojuu said:
Yes, but why does the bike need so many CCA? It’s almost a litre, sure, but its not like it’s some 11:1 hi comp thing. My view is get the bike so it starts on the weakest battery it can. A more reliable bike isn’t a bike that has a great battery with a static 13v available - it’s the bike that will start with barely 11v…..
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The simple answer is volt/amp drain at start. I won't get technical. Say a bike needs 100cca. If you have small battery/CCA just meeting the CCA it means the battery must exert all its effort to start causing low voltage to other components. That's why some early jap bikes had relays to keep the headlight off until the bike was started because of the starter draw. So with a higher CCA battery, less effort, and you retain higher volts to other components. In the case of the 961 if the ECU sees low voltage, it causes issues with the idle etc. Typically in lead batteries, the higher the CCA the larger the battery where in lithium they can get more power into a smaller case so they tend to be higher CCA
 
TonyA said:
Hi Stephen , Have you thought about getting the speedo repaired ? Do you remember the test I ran to see how many days I can leave my bike off charger with Shoari lithium and still start ? Didn't Gojuu repair his better than new ?
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Hi Tony,

I vaguely remember the test you did but not the results. I understand that the Speedo can be repaired to prevent/minimise parasitic drain, although not clear how complex the repair is. I’m all for a bit of preventative maintenance but also subscribe to the ‘if it ain’t broke………….” adage. The way I am using the bike and my battery setup is working perfectly for me. If/when I have any associated issues I would re-visit it. I think this is the last bike to be tinkering with if it’s working. Seems that it can be ’upset’ in any number of ways and then yer chasing yer tail and some spurious fault. That said, do we know how easy the fix is?

Either way I’d stay with the Shorai. As we’ve discussed in a few threads now (and CG mentions above) it’s not just the strong starting (increased CCA’s), but also the stronger battery that helps in avoiding any associated low voltage issues that can plague the 961.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
The Shorai BMS charger connection to the battery is poor - press fit only with no positive connection. I taped mine in place and have never had difficulty (fingers crossed). The cable connection into the BMS is similarly poor, but manageable once in place. I think the Shorai battery and BMS are a good option as they are optimised to work together, also offering diagnostics and minor repair function. Need to be willing to set it up and monitor it effectively though, which is not ideal.

Straight from the ‘charge’ function, clock voltage shows 13.1-13.2v (ignition on - lights on - 5-10 sec warmup - start engine - no throttle). Within 60 secs voltage shows a healthy 14.5v. If you are not getting these numbers (or close) further investigation may be required. I never leave the bike off the charger for more than the period it takes for the bike to cool.
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I'll give it another shot in the summer and see how it goes. I'll tape/come up with a solution for the connector, BUT I may have to look at a mos fet regulator to go with it. I assume you are running the existing reg rec? One of the concerns I had was that after a start at Brooklands, I rode home, probably an hr or so. Got home, stopped the engine, tried to restart and nothing. At that point, swapped the battery and zero issues ever since, but since I was attending the Norton event, I didn't have time to investigate/test further. I may have been too hard on the Li..it was only an hr or so ride...but that was after an hr or so ride earlier in the day. It looks like the battery in my K1300 is on it's way out. the connected Optimate indicating less than optimal health, although it still seems to start fine, I may move the Norton's new battery to that and try the li one again.
 
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