Are Replicas really Classics?

grandpaul

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Acebars said:
I'm Brityfing a 1972 XS650 (I apologise in advance to purists)... will happily post pics if anyone is interested.
Then what you want to fall back on is AHRMA's definition of "Historic" in thier classification system, i.e., anything 1972 or earlier.

Sure, post pix; why not? This is the correct section (start your own new thread)
 
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I don't have a problem racing my Seeley 850 against a Yamaha XS650 or any other bike with a two valve air cooled single, twin or triple cylinder motor, and I don't give a stuff what age it is or it's nationality, as long as it is not over 1000cc capacity. At least when it is doing it's thing it sounds right , and the owner has the same developmental problems I have. The level playing field is important and mixed grids are rubbish.
 
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72Combat said:
So does that mean that Manx Nortons not made at Norton in the 50's and 60's are really like Prada bags you buy from China other than being replicas as they are not being passed off as the real thing?

There is no distinction here between Historic and Classic racing as until recently It was not apparent ( to me) that some of the bikes are modern bikes less than 5 years old lining up against ones that are over 30 years old. They should run in BEARS.
Most of the BEARS bikes should run in classic races. There could be fast and slow heats both run off the same grid if necessary, or separately if the numbers are there. My major objection arises when the mix of technologies occurs in races. All of these things rely on 'critical mass' and spectator appeal. If you get races spread out over a lap after one lap and full of different noises, you cannot sell that so while it is happening the riders will always pay the cost of circuit hire instead of the spectators. There should only be one cut-off date to exclude bikes less than ten years old, and even that is unnecessary in some cases. (The RE Continental GT in particular).
 

grandpaul

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acotrel said:
If you get races spread out over a lap after one lap and full of different noises, you cannot sell that so while it is happening the riders will always pay the cost of circuit hire instead of the spectators.
Even with a big draw even such as the Barber Vintage Festival (AHRMA), the huge crowd, vendors and the like don't have anything to do with the deal AHRMA gets to use the track for the weekend. It all comes down to the sales ability of the organization to promote itself in a financially positive manner.

EVEN THEN, when the AHRMA roadracers pull in an inordinately large share of total revenue for the organization year after year, due to the politics of the board and founders, it NEVER gets passed on to the racers in the form of lowered entry fees (Voted down just this last year).
 
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If lower entry fees were voted down by the competitors that is really something. Where did the votes come from, who is entitled to participate in changing rules and electing your controlling body, or is it a self-sustaining corporate body similar to Motorcycling Australia ? Our controlling bodies were originally riders' unions, however since corporatization our sport has gone backwards and many schonky deals are done which affect the race classes.
 
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acotrel said:
I don't have a problem racing my Seeley 850 against a Yamaha XS650 or any other bike with a two valve air cooled single, twin or triple cylinder motor, and I don't give a stuff what age it is or it's nationality, as long as it is not over 1000cc capacity. At least when it is doing it's thing it sounds right , and the owner has the same developmental problems I have. The level playing field is important and mixed grids are rubbish.
So your ok running against a bike thats 200cc less but no with ones 150cc more, I don't understand.

The large capacity class here doe's not really attract many entries as its 500cc plus ' do what you like as long as it sort of looks original"... so guys tend to go for the 500 class instead as its broken down into several classes.
 

grandpaul

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acotrel said:
If lower entry fees were voted down by the competitors that is really something. Where did the votes come from, who is entitled to participate in changing rules and electing your controlling body, or is it a self-sustaining corporate body similar to Motorcycling Australia ?
The organization is "member owned", but is controlled by a board of regionally elected board members who always seem to recruit enough new members in thier regions to re-elect a majority of the "good old boys". That's the bunch that brought traditional classic/historic roadracing in the 'States to a point of splintering and extreme financial drainage to pay off lawyers.

The measure to lower entry fees for ROADRACERS (which pay higher fees than off-roaders), was voted down by the entire organization including the off-roaders (through thier representatives). We were outnumbered.

To bring this thread back to it's topic, many of the new batch of good old boys mostly race off-road "post-moderns" (not classics), and could care less about what happens to the roadracing folks, as long as they keep subsidising the off-road activities.
 
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grandpaul said:
The organization is "member owned", but is controlled by a board of regionally elected board members who always seem to recruit enough new members in thier regions to re-elect a majority of the "good old boys".
Did you ever think that maybe they are not "recruiting enough new member" and they are relying on voter apathy or just the shear larger number of non road racers. Why are you spinning this to vilify the board? My opinion is that it has more to do with voter apathy as AHRMA's members seem to have a dismal turn out when voting.

grandpaul said:
That's the bunch that brought traditional classic/historic roadracing in the 'States to a point of splintering and extreme financial drainage to pay off lawyers.
Let's try this: They vigorously defended AHRMA against an unsupported lawsuit by a previous member (very wealthy past Brooklyn NY District Attorney and in my opinion, likeable guy if you are not on the opposite side). Along the way the AHRMA insurance company went bankrupt and AHRMA was left hanging with legal bills but prevailed and is now healthy and vibrant thanks to the board members, some past, some present. So watch out for the naysayers.

grandpaul said:
The measure to lower entry fees for ROADRACERS (which pay higher fees than off-roaders), was voted down by the entire organization including the off-roaders (through thier representatives). We were outnumbered.
Now this is some spin on things - "was voted down by the entire organization including the off-roaders (through thier representatives)." It was voted down by the board members who are elected by the members of AHRMA, at least those members of AHRMA who voted.

grandpaul said:
To bring this thread back to it's topic, many of the new batch of good old boys mostly race off-road "post-moderns" (not classics), and could care less about what happens to the roadracing folks, as long as they keep subsidising the off-road activities.
Why all the negativity? A lot of these so called good old boys are from the west coast and northeast and I suspect they would take exception to being called good ole boys.

Remember to vote early and vote often
 

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AHRMA would be better represented (in my opinion) if the roadracers and off-roaders were two different bodies. It'll never happen, but it would do both sides better.
 
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grandpaul said:
AHRMA would be better represented (in my opinion) if the roadracers and off-roaders were two different bodies. It'll never happen, but it would do both sides better.
You may be correct there. What is really at stake though, higher race registration fees for road racers which subsidizes vintage trials, motocross, Cross country etc. maybe not such a bad thing if without the support they die off. Yeah it smarts the wallet but only a small part of the whole $$ package - rationalizing, I know.
 
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Trying to get a grip on this replica and classic. Copied and posted a few definitions of Classic below.

My take on the question: Are Replicas really Classic?

Replicas of Classics are just that, replicas of classics. Not sure you can interchange the terms. A replica of a classic can have all or most of the attributes of an original classic. This is a matter of semantics though definition 4a uses the word "authentic" but in my opinion, it is not exclusive based on the various other definitions.

See definitions of Classic below:
1
a : serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value <classic literary works>
b : traditional, enduring <classic designs>
c : characterized by simple tailored lines in fashion year after year <a classic suit>

2
: of or relating to the ancient Greeks and Romans or their culture : classical

3
a : historically memorable <a classic battle>
b : noted because of special literary or historical associations <Paris is the classic refuge of expatriates>

4
a : authentic, authoritative
b : typical <a classic example of chicanery> <a classic error>
 
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Rohan said:
Holmeslice said:
If they said we have to race Penny Farthings, then I'm going to build my Penny Farthing to be the fastest there, within the rules.
Great comment. !
Have you ever seen the maniacs that race penny farthings though ?!

Good comments all round too.
And its great if real manxes have their own class.
But will 'lesser' racing bikes than manxes have their own classes to be competitive in ?
Until the manxes became top of the single cylinder heap (in the early 1950s), there were KTTs and 7Rs and GP Triumphs and Manxmen and Rudges and OK Supremes and and.
And exotica like Gileras and Rhondines and bicylindrica Guzzis and MVs and and and, that made the manxes obsolete...

Re; ”Have you ever seen the maniacs that race penny farthings though ?!”

Yes, there was a small film on TV a while back I wouldn’t want to fall off one of these as it appears higher than an horse :!:
 
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I suggest there are two distinct things about classic racing:

Historic racing - creating the nostalgia trip at some meetings as the British do at Goodwood, is important.

Other wise do not try to recreate history. At the other meetings get down to real unrestricted racing of old bikes.

- the events should be separate.

If I had my way our annual Australian Historic Motorcycle Championships would be Goodwood style meetings - bikes and open wheel racing cars only, though.

http://www.goodwood.co.uk/revival/photo ... -road.aspx

http://www.goodwood.co.uk/revival/photo ... -2012.aspx
 
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acotrel said:
I don't have a problem racing my Seeley 850 against a Yamaha XS650 or any other bike with a two valve air cooled single, twin or triple cylinder motor, and I don't give a stuff what age it is or it's nationality, as long as it is not over 1000cc capacity. At least when it is doing it's thing it sounds right , and the owner has the same developmental problems I have. The level playing field is important and mixed grids are rubbish.
I know nothing about racing, historic racing etc.

I don't mind most nationalities of motorcycles, but I do have a sour mouth about Japanese bikes and I'd never buy a new one.

This is because I am aware of Japans history during WW2 and to date. In particular their industrial history in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

Put shortly it is a disgrace, Japan literally had government endorsed Industrial spies, for example students were sent abroad on the basis that they would collect information for their return, Sangyo supai in english "industrial spy" was an official well paid occupation in Japan.

I don't think any country in the world including China which is doing a hell of a lot of copying at the moment has ever had such an industrial espionage program on the scale that Japan had post war.

Yes the Japanese innovated in the 70-80s onwards but they got there by unscrupulous and questionable business practices while maintaining a false facade of good practice, which was not so in reality. This isn't just with motorcycles, but cars, computers etc. etc. all of the Japanese main industries. There is really very little the Japs have invented or innovated, it was usually copied and then "upgraded".
 
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Acebars said:
acotrel said:
I don't mind most nationalities of motorcycles, but I do have a sour mouth about Japanese bikes and I'd never buy a new one.

This is because I am aware of Japans history during WW2 and to date. In particular their industrial history in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

Put shortly it is a disgrace, Japan literally had government endorsed Industrial spies, for example students were sent abroad on the basis that they would collect information for their return, Sangyo supai in english "industrial spy" was an official well paid occupation in Japan.

I don't think any country in the world including China which is doing a hell of a lot of copying at the moment has ever had such an industrial espionage program on the scale that Japan had post war.

Yes the Japanese innovated in the 70-80s onwards but they got there by unscrupulous and questionable business practices while maintaining a false facade of good practice, which was not so in reality. This isn't just with motorcycles, but cars, computers etc. etc. all of the Japanese main industries. There is really very little the Japs have invented or innovated, it was usually copied and then "upgraded".
If you're claiming that a Honda is a copy of a Matchless, excuse me while I laugh in your face.
 
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I don't know - if you squint a bit, and use your imagination, Peter Williams' Arter Matchless and a G50 and this bike may have a few passing similarities

Pic from when this subject was discussed before, of Pauls bike.


You do need to squint a bit though...
If you see examples that have the 'G50 replica' kits fitted to them, it does make you look twice.

They sold gazillions of them, so a future classic - for many, for sure.
 
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Acebars said:
acotrel said:
I don't have a problem racing my Seeley 850 against a Yamaha XS650 or any other bike with a two valve air cooled single, twin or triple cylinder motor, and I don't give a stuff what age it is or it's nationality, as long as it is not over 1000cc capacity. At least when it is doing it's thing it sounds right , and the owner has the same developmental problems I have. The level playing field is important and mixed grids are rubbish.
I know nothing about racing, historic racing etc.

I don't mind most nationalities of motorcycles, but I do have a sour mouth about Japanese bikes and I'd never buy a new one.

This is because I am aware of Japans history during WW2 and to date. In particular their industrial history in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

Put shortly it is a disgrace, Japan literally had government endorsed Industrial spies, for example students were sent abroad on the basis that they would collect information for their return, Sangyo supai in english "industrial spy" was an official well paid occupation in Japan.

I don't think any country in the world including China which is doing a hell of a lot of copying at the moment has ever had such an industrial espionage program on the scale that Japan had post war.

Yes the Japanese innovated in the 70-80s onwards but they got there by unscrupulous and questionable business practices while maintaining a false facade of good practice, which was not so in reality. This isn't just with motorcycles, but cars, computers etc. etc. all of the Japanese main industries. There is really very little the Japs have invented or innovated, it was usually copied and then "upgraded".
Sounds like the bitter view held by the local Classic Racing Club with the ban on Jap bikes and parts. The Japs kicked the British bike industries arse because of complacency and a view the Japanese could not build large capacity bikes.
 
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While I don't totally agree with Allen there is SOME truth in his post. But also a lot of the earlier jap stuff was copy's. Take the copy of the BSA A10 by Kawasaki but from my understanding under license from BSA. There was a lot of this going on in the 60's and early 70's in the auto industry. Toyota's first automatic tranny;s were copys of the GM cast iron and alum. powerglides but shrunk down, Than a copy of the borgwarner 3 spd trany's all under license. So laugh at that. All though he has a sour taste about the Jap's it go's on in all industries, even in the same country.

Triton Thrasher said:
acotrel said:
I don't mind most nationalities of motorcycles, but I do have a sour mouth about Japanese bikes and I'd never buy a new one.

This is because I am aware of Japans history during WW2 and to date. In particular their industrial history in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

Put shortly it is a disgrace, Japan literally had government endorsed Industrial spies, for example students were sent abroad on the basis that they would collect information for their return, Sangyo supai in english "industrial spy" was an official well paid occupation in Japan.

I don't think any country in the world including China which is doing a hell of a lot of copying at the moment has ever had such an industrial espionage program on the scale that Japan had post war.

Yes the Japanese innovated in the 70-80s onwards but they got there by unscrupulous and questionable business practices while maintaining a false facade of good practice, which was not so in reality. This isn't just with motorcycles, but cars, computers etc. etc. all of the Japanese main industries. There is really very little the Japs have invented or innovated, it was usually copied and then "upgraded".
If you're claiming that a Honda is a copy of a Matchless, excuse me while I laugh in your face.[/quote]
 
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