1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Are Replicas really Classics?

Discussion in 'General Classic Motorcycle Discussion' started by 72Combat, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    While we are thrashing this originality issue around here, spotted this gem for sale.
    Now, I wouldn't mind seeing how this would perform.
    Nor would I be deeply offended to see it out racing with suitable opponents.
    If folks didn't think they could build a better mousetrap, we'd all still be riding penny farthings....

    I was somewhat amused to see it called a Manx Norton though. !
    Manx Matchless might be more appropriate ?


    [​IMG]
     
  2. 72Combat

    72Combat

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Fairly typical example of ' original' race bike here in NZ.
     
  3. Dances with Shrapnel

    Dances with Shrapnel VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    And a stunning classic! :)
     
  4. 72Combat

    72Combat

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Out of interest whats original ( period correct) and whats not on that bike? as it looks to meet the criteria of my original question.
     
  5. wilkey113

    wilkey113

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    I don't think anything on that bike is original.
    Obviously the motor doesn't go in that frame. The carb is not correct for the motor. The gearbox looks like a modern TTI. And surely everything is replica parts.
    Probably a blast to ride and race, but nothing about it gets my blood pumping.
     
  6. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012

    Rohan, that is a very lovely motorcycle and certainly a classic. It looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, so it is a duck. However it isnot an 'historic bike' but who really cares except for the people looking for genuine parts for an historic bike ? I suggest the clear distinction and defnition should be made between the terms 'classic' and 'historic'. All 'historic bikes' are 'classic bikes' however the reverse is definitely not true. Most modern Ducatis are classic bikes.. So is the RE Continental GT.
     
  7. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012

    If it was made out of all remanufactured parts, that is excellent. It is what we should all be racing except at Goodwood type meetings and in the Lansdown Series. So called 'historic racing' is destroying the great old bikes which are part of our heritage - they end up as a pile of non-standard parts which 'improve' bikes beyond recognition.
    Historic racing is the worst kind of bullshit in many ways, the regulations destroy the fun aspect and don't preserve the genuine bikes.
     
  8. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    Actually that bike does get my blood pumping. It would be almost as reliable and fast as a manx without the horrific expense. It would be excellent to race, however if anyone took it to Goodwood Revival, they should be shot on sight.
     
  9. 72Combat

    72Combat

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    We don't have the population to support historic ( original) and classic ( modified from original) here so its all lumped in together.
    They do have an Historic Racing Licence in the Vintage Car Club, but I'd hardly call what they do 'racing' any more than a track day is racing.
     
  10. Time Warp

    Time Warp .......back to the 70's. VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
  11. daveh

    daveh

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Over here, we have enough bikes to fill a grid at a short circuit meeting and two grids for a real roads race. You will see plenty of genuine, period race bikes in historic parades.

    For those who haven't done classic racing, it's hard to overstate just how tough it is on old bikes. Owners of genuine, historic machines will take them out for an occasional canter and make some noise to entertain the crowd, but that's it. When classic racing began, all the machines were period and all the parts needed to keep them going were period. Over the years, many of those period parts became very scarce and prohibitively expensive, so they made replica parts to keep the old bikes going, and from there, the complete replica emerged. It's hard for some people who knew the scene and raced during the period to accept replicas, and they don't like knee-down, ultra-sticky tyres, CB 350 Hondas and 6 speed 'boxes, etc, because it isn't what it was like back in the day. And they're right, it isn't. But take those away and you would be left with just historic parades. Classic racing has to be a formula if it is to survive and prosper 42 years after the cut-off date, otherwise it will wither.

    As far as that G50 engined Norton is concerned, replica parts or originals, it just looks wrong.
     
  12. Dances with Shrapnel

    Dances with Shrapnel VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Sums up my sentiment exactly. I see it as the natural progression of all thing.

    I sense so much hand wringing on this forum and elsewhere about "that's not the way it was" and "we must return - we must return" and my take on it is that it is the cold hard reality crashing down on a few who expound on the virtues of authenticity. There's a certain practicality to sustaining with a near facsimile or replica of the original but as someone else on this thread pointed out, so many original machines were not original during their day with replacement parts. To me it comes down to an individuals tolerance for degree of change. If I had a Norton Manx and had to replace the piston yet there were no authetic original factory pistons to be had, and I end up replacing the piston with a different make/manufacture from say the states or NZ; then what would that bike be? Yes, it would be great to own or see an original unfettered factory racer but what does one say about it if they modified the factory racer in the day before that factory racer ever touched a track; then what is original and authentic?

    +1
    Reminds me of a 500 Honda Ascot
     
  13. 72Combat

    72Combat

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Over here, we have enough bikes to fill a grid at a short circuit meeting and two grids for a real roads race. You will see plenty of genuine, period race bikes in historic parades.

    For those who haven't done classic racing, it's hard to overstate just how tough it is on old bikes. Owners of genuine, historic machines will take them out for an occasional canter and make some noise to entertain the crowd, but that's it. When classic racing began, all the machines were period and all the parts needed to keep them going were period. Over the years, many of those period parts became very scarce and prohibitively expensive, so they made replica parts to keep the old bikes going, and from there, the complete replica emerged. It's hard for some people who knew the scene and raced during the period to accept replicas, and they don't like knee-down, ultra-sticky tyres, CB 350 Hondas and 6 speed 'boxes, etc, because it isn't what it was like back in the day. And they're right, it isn't. But take those away and you would be left with just historic parades. Classic racing has to be a formula if it is to survive and prosper 42 years after the cut-off date, otherwise it will wither.

    As far as that G50 engined Norton is concerned, replica parts or originals, it just looks wrong.[/quote]

    I only do the short circuits here as not keen on the road races, what you say about racing being hard on old bikes is true, thanks to that the BMW and I did 20 races in 2012 had one DNF ( blown fuse) and won the series. http://www.nzcmrr.com/results/2012
    We have two classic racing clubs here, the pre 1976 no jappers one and the all encompassing Post Classic one, they can't run meets without each other but the pre 76 ones want to live in the past.
    There are dumb rules like " no Japanese parts unless originally fitted" and " tyres must be of a treaded type" ,superchargers, but you can fit a tt gearbox, change the bore/stoke etc.....
    I don't mind what parts are fitted , just lets not pretend its Period Classic racing.
    I'm off to the shed to crack on with the 500cc BMW racer that never was :lol:
    I'd love to have a go at fitting a supercharger to a BMW....apparently they went ok till the Sour Graped ones changed the rules.
     
  14. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    I suggest the rule should be 'no Japanese parts on BEARS bikes', and that should be a recognised subclass of classic racing - also no European parts on Japanese bikes - however who really cares ? - only their production racers and a few superbikes are classics - the rest are throw-away items. I don't care what I race against or on what type of bike, as long as the other guys on the grid have the same technology limitations and development problems. I will happily race a two stroke in a two stroke race, or a superbike in a superbike race. My preference is for thunderbikes (most BEARS). There are only three main types of solos and usually only about three capacity classes needed for each type at most race meetings - it is not rocket science.

    Date of manufacture is largely irrelevant and you can always run fast and slow heats and a final (27 races per one day event). It is technology differences which should be controlled to achieve a level playing field.
    Historic racing which does not provide a nostalgia kick gives me the shits. The Lansdowne Series and Goodwood are fantastic.
     
  15. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    So were british bikes when in their heyday. ?
    Thats why there were new models every 2 or 3 years.....
     
  16. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    In 10 or 20 or 30 years, that will be precisely the type of bikes appearing at Goodwood etc = exactly as they raced them in 2014

    So the difference between a current bike and a 'Classic' is merely that 10 or 20 or 30 years... ??
     
  17. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    I don't know what the definition of a 'classic' should be, however I know what one is. For the purposes of 'classic racing' - regardless of their modern parts the Paul Smart Replica, and the Kawasaki ELR 1000 are classics. A molnar manx is a classic as is the Walmsley G50 and BSA Gold Star. Any two valve sports Ducati is a classic. A GSXR 750 type bike or British bike which has no racing history and no resemblance to any bike with a racing history is not a classic. The OW01 Yamaha is a classic, as is the CB1100R Honda. Any authentic Japanese or British production racer of any year is an historic bike, and is thus a classic. Home made racers developed from carved up road bikes are not classics, especially those which have aluminium frames.
    None of this has anything to do with the age of the bike. It is about what they actually are based on technology and intended use. As soon as the bike has four valve motor, watercooling, and deltabox frame, it is not a classic unless it has a racing history. Last year's MotoGP bikes are all classics.
     
  18. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    I saw a beautiful six cylinder Honda Gold Wing in Apollo Bay yesterday. When are we going to have autononomous motorcycles ?
     
  19. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Why ?
    This is just your slightly narrow minded view of the world. ?

    Things like the McIntosh Suzuki and Moriwaki Kawsaki most definitely are as classic as any factory racer. ?
    And lets not forget the immortal featherbed came from the backyard of the McCandless brothers.
    That blows your rule out of the park ?
     
  20. Rohan

    Rohan

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010

    What meaneth thou by that word. ?
    Its not in any dictionary I can find.
    And your train of thought eludes us....
     

Share This Page