Question - Norman White Manual

[Café au Lait]

I had a similar issue on reinstalling my rear wheel and Matt’s advise mirrors Norman’s as per page 216 end of section 17. Trouble is when I do so, and I’ve done it countless times the end result is this:

Light presser on the brake or full on the bugger rubs after tightening the left nut. If I tighten without applying the brake it’s fine HOWEVER I notice that as I tighten the main spindle the wheel’s alignment shifts slights as evidenced but it moving reward 1mm to leave that much gap between the spindle and the adjuster. All I’ve been able to is set so that the distance from the centre of the rear Isolastic nut to the centre of the spindle is the same on both sides. The bike handles as it should and the rear brake works as normal, is pretty shite compared to my modern bikes with rear discs. Thankfully my front Brembo work extremely well.

 

[Fast Eddie]

I had a similar issue on reinstalling my rear wheel and Matt’s advise mirrors Norman’s as per page 216 end of section 17. Trouble is when I do so, and I’ve done it countless times the end result is this:

Light presser on the brake or full on the bugger rubs after tightening the left nut. If I tighten without applying the brake it’s fine HOWEVER I notice that as I tighten the main spindle the wheel’s alignment shifts slights as evidenced but it moving reward 1mm to leave that much gap between the spindle and the adjuster. All I’ve been able to is set so that the distance from the centre of the rear Isolastic nut to the centre of the spindle is the same on both sides. The bike handles as it should and the rear brake works as normal, is pretty shite compared to my modern bikes with rear discs. Thankfully my front Brembo work extremely well.

Something is catching on a rib or raised part of the casting inside, hence my use of an angle grinder to remove said protrusions.

There should be a witness mark going by that noise, so should be easy to detect.

We’ll, it’s either the above OR a family member is stood out of view banging a wrench on a cup just to wind you up !!

 

[Café au Lait]

Something is catching on a rib or raised part of the casting inside, hence my use of an angle grinder to remove said protrusions.

There should be a witness mark going by that noise, so should be easy to detect.

We’ll, it’s either the above OR a family member is stood out of view banging a wrench on a cup just to wind you up !!

It didn’t do that when I received it from Matt who had the wheel off to replace the scratched swing arm so I’m happy with the setup. That noise only occurred after I removed the wheel to have a new tyre fitted and then only if I follow Matt’s/Norman’s instructions. I’m obviously doing something wrong but by not first applying the brake it doesn’t rub so that’s where I’m at; no way would I leave it rubbing. I’m at a loss has to how to resolve it but honestly the brake works as per Matt’s setup so I’ll loose no sleep over it, heck, I’m still trying to figure out the noise at 3.5-4k; that has Matt stumped too; I managed to record it, he’s pondering.

 

[robs ss]

Well, I put the 30 thou shim (one of three that @Dan1950 gave me - #21 in post #1)), replacing the 15 thou I put in a year or so ago. Thanks Dan!
Now... great, that faint rubbing noise is gone! Just silence! (well, almost - it is a Norton after all!)
I could not see any witness marks showing rubbing, but the noise was there - now it's not!
The only thing is that it makes the hub assy 30 thou wider - I started another (productive) thread on that.
Ha ha! @Café au Lait (Simon)!!

 

[Saber]

I had a sound like that. It was my master link on the drive chain hitting the chain guard. I turned the master link over so the securing clip was on the inboard side. No more noise.

 

[Bonzo]

I had a sound like that. It was my master link on the drive chain hitting the chain guard. I turned the master link over so the securing clip was on the inboard side. No more noise.

Yep, same here

 

[Stephen Hill]

This thread reminds me what a compromised design was used on the Commando rear hub/brake/axle.
Makes me want to order a one piece axle from Madass.

 

[Café au Lait]

Well, I put the 30 thou shim (one of three that @Dan1950 gave me - #21 in post #1)), replacing the 15 thou I put in a year or so ago. Thanks Dan!
Now... great, that faint rubbing noise is gone! Just silence! (well, almost - it is a Norton after all!)
I could not see any witness marks showing rubbing, but the noise was there - now it's not!
The only thing is that it makes the hub assy 30 thou wider - I started another (productive) thread on that.
Ha ha! @Café au Lait (Simon)!!

No wonder you can’t put the spacer back in! Fixed one problem and created another. Correct me if I’m wrong Bob but before you started you had a working brake with now scraping? If so you must be able to return to the same if you refit the way you did before or Matt did surely. I found refitting the sensor/spacer a bit of a challenge at first but soon figured it out but then follow Norman White’s guide got the rubbing in the video above. Following Matt’s detailed guide cured that issue without shimming anything.

 

[robs ss]

No wonder you can’t put the spacer back in! Fixed one problem and created another. Correct me if I’m wrong Bob but before you started you had a working brake with now scraping? If so you must be able to return to the same if you refit the way you did before or Matt did surely. I found refitting the sensor/spacer a bit of a challenge at first but soon figured it out but then follow Norman White’s guide got the rubbing in the video above. Following Matt’s detailed guide cured that issue without shimming anything.

No... the "noise" is now gone by using the 0.030" shim.
As for ease of fitting - I'm confident of a good path forward using ideas from the Wheel Installation thread.
...and no, I'm not going to pull the drum off again for "fun" to test it out - that can wait until next time.

 

[YING]

Regarding the "rather more complicated procedure" in post #1, I have received the prompt and kind response from Norman White who has agreed to my posting his response:
Hello Rob,

Sharron from Crowood Press has forwarded to me your question on Norton Commando rear brake centralising which I raised in my book. Yes my direction is a tad misleading and I should have directed you to chapter 15 page 216 centre paragraph. The process IS similar to the front drum brake however as you will note on page 216, while centralising the rear brake as you would the front brake, attention must also be paid to the chain tension and wheel alignment. There is a guide to aligning the wheels on page 218 . It is a little tricky juggling the chain tension and wheel alignment while centralising the brake plate and my suggestion is to set the chain tension and wheel alignment first, then centralise the brake plate. Any doubts, give me a call.

Thank you for buying my book,

Best wishes,

Norman.

So.. that answers that question - and I would suggest you mark p179 of your books appropriately. I have!
Cheers

Rob,
I don’t have the Norman White book. I just have the factory manual. I guess it is time to get one. I am centering the drum using the “spin the wheel and hold down the pedal while tightening the axle “
Mike

 

[cliffa]

Maybe it's already been mentioned earlier in the thread, but if you fit a Madass (or similar) one piece axle do you have to go through all these shenanigans?

 

[robs ss]

Rob,
I don’t have the Norman White book. I just have the factory manual. I guess it is time to get one. I am centering the drum using the “spin the wheel and hold down the pedal while tightening the axle “
Mike

Yep - that's the way, but on the rear it's more complicated because you also have to maintain correct chain tension and wheel alignment.
You're busier than a one-legged man in a bum kicking contest!

BTW Mike - Norman White's book doesnt give any more detail than what's been discussed here. Still a very good book though!

 

[acotrel]

I like the way you guys spend effort on attention to detail, however sometimes we cannot see the wood for the trees. When you wheel the motorcycle, it should always be light and easy to push when on level ground.

 

[YING]

Maybe it's already been mentioned earlier in the thread, but if you fit a Madass (or similar) one piece axle do you have to go through all these shenanigans?

Cliff,
I also have the one-piece axle and still go through the procedure mentioned above and I am still having the problem of a tight spot when adjusting the rear brake. I still don’t know what is causing this.Going to remove it again and see if I can find out what is causing this.
Mike

 

[marshg246]

Cliff,
I also have the one-piece axle and still go through the procedure mentioned above and I am still having the problem of a tight spot when adjusting the rear brake. I still don’t know what is causing this.Going to remove it again and see if I can find out what is causing this.
Mike

There can be several causes of a "tight spot", that I can think of and probably more:

1) The brake backing plate being warped. Shims can keep it from rubbing on the drum but not from the shoes being out of alignment.
2) Badly formed brake shoes.
3) Loose/bent pivot pins
4) A warped drum
5) The most common, the brake backing plate and therefore shoes not being centered in the drum. If the brake is held on when tightening, and this still happens, look elsewhere!

 

[YING]

There can be several causes of a "tight spot", that I can think of and probably more:

1) The brake backing plate being warped. Shims can keep it from rubbing on the drum but not from the shoes being out of alignment.
2) Badly formed brake shoes.
3) Loose/bent pivot pins
4) A warped drum
5) The most common, the brake backing plate and therefore shoes not being centered in the drum. If the brake is held on when tightening, and this still happens, look elsewhere!

Greg,
How does one find out if the backing plate is bent?Does it have to be checked with a lathe?Same question for the drum as mine is fairly new.Pivot pins are good.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[marshg246]

Greg,
How does one find out if the backing plate is bent?Does it have to be checked with a lathe?Same question for the drum as mine is fairly new.Pivot pins are good.
Thanks,
Mike

If you remove the wheel and remove any spacers between the drum and backing plate, you can lay the backing plate on the drum and see if it rocks. I've seen many bent and it is possible in some cases to straighten them.

The drum can be laid on a flat surface to check - rare to find one warped. To can also measure across it inside in several places to make sure it is round.

There are two pivot pins - riveted and nut secured, if both are solid and the keeper fits properly, they are most likely fine.

It's also possible that the leading/trailing edges of the shoes are not properly relieved but that usually makes dragging that is not in one spot.

 

[YING]

If you remove the wheel and remove any spacers between the drum and backing plate, you can lay the backing plate on the drum and see if it rocks. I've seen many bent and it is possible in some cases to straighten them.

The drum can be laid on a flat surface to check - rare to find one warped. To can also measure across it inside in several places to make sure it is round.

There are two pivot pins - riveted and nut secured, if both are solid and the keeper fits properly, they are most likely fine.

It's also possible that the leading/trailing edges of the shoes are not properly relieved but that usually makes dragging that is not in one spot.

Thanks Greg,
I will check the 2 backing plates I have.Do you have any in stock?
Mike

 

[marshg246]

Thanks Greg,
I will check the 2 backing plates I have.Do you have any in stock?
Mike

Hard question to answer . When I bought out Old Britts, in theory, there were two new ones from AN. If so, I've overlooked them! They are expensive from AN so when I've needed one, I bought from eBay, hoped for straight, and powder coated them if usable. Probably 3 of 4 I get used are usable.