Norman White PR starting problems


Yeah I forgot that smiling and positive thinking would get that motor running in no time.

The cartoons between the skits were my favorite part of Monty Python.
 
PM999S said:
I've spoken again to Norman and he says the attached pic shows the small timing window in his special primary case set up which will show the timing mark at 28 degrees when strobed. My one extra confusion is that the timing stator is not on the timing case side as the usual Boyer setup but seems to have its wire coming out of the back of the primary case. Is anyone familiar with this set-up?View attachment 82771
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As I had assumed when you mentioned Hall effect, the timing is not on the cam end but on the crank, specifically using the pulley to rotate the metal plate that triggers the Hall effect pick up.

So one pick up fires both cylinders, each rotation, wasted spark on the exhaust stroke. I have seen different versions of this, some attached internally around the crankcase, with the inner side of the pulley having the trigger and including one of Norman's sitting on the outside of the primary cover using a trigger on the outer side of the pulley.
 
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Fast Eddie said:
Looks like you have a crank triggered ign?

That is definitely not standard. But Steve Maney et all all did this.

Basically it looks like you have quite a special machine. It also seems that perhaps you don’t fully realise what you’ve got.

I would consider an investment in Normans time (If he’s willing) to take the bike to him, let him give it a once over, and talk you through the bike, what’s special / different and what you need to know.
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100% this....

And Norman has done quite a lot of crank triggering ignitions over the years.
 
PM999S said:
The Mk11s are 34mm smooth bore and have a joint push down choke which is the only way to get one of the cylinders sparodically coughing and throwing out a bit of vapour from the exhaust.
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With any enrichener device, MkIIs or Mikunis, keep the throttle completely shut when starting! What Storm says....
 
SteveA said:
With any enrichener device, MkIIs or Mikunis, keep the throttle completely shut when starting! What Storm says....
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Yes, except the "plugs are wet" which begs if the OP knows to clear the excess fuel by WOT. Somewhere in between, the magic mix will happen.
 
OP: "Plugs out and both soaked in fuel and sparking well when kicked over against the head"
Plugs that are somewhat fouled will sometimes fire in a regular 14.6 atmosphere, yet, when subjected to 150+ PSI atmosphere, will not fire. JFWIW
 
PM999S said:
Here's one pic of the bike overall and the other a detail of the primary chaincase set up that Norman has constructed around a belt drive and dry clutch. There is only one wire coming out of the rear of the case and that might only be for the alternator so I'm not sure how to perform a manual timing set to retard the ignition enough just to get it running...View attachment 82774View attachment 82775
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This bike has no alternator. The pick up is held on by those two screws on the alloy plate. Timing is adjusted by loosening the clamping screw at the front of that plate and rotating it. Strobe looking through the round window, as Norman I think has told you.
 
concours said:
OP: "Plugs out and both soaked in fuel and sparking well when kicked over against the head"
Plugs that are somewhat fouled will sometimes fire in a regular 14.6 atmosphere, yet, when subjected to 150+ PSI atmosphere, will not fire. JFWIW
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Absolutely that, and once.....on a new build....I had in appearance a good spark both sides. We put the coils on a tester.....useless....another set of coils.....ran first push....

Spark snuffed out under pressure.
 
SteveA said:
Absolutely that, and once.....on a new build....I had in appearance a good spark both sides. We put the coils on a tester.....useless....another set of coils.....ran first push....

Spark snuffed out under pressure.
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Are we absolutely sure there is a fully charged battery correctly attached to this motorcycle?

:oops:
 
I have built races bikes and bought race bikes.

They don't come with instruction manuals.

When one has been built by one of the most respected Norton builders in the world, who 50 years ago was building these bikes first time around for the factory.....

He will help you, but you are dealing with a guy that doesn't know you from Adam, in particular, he doesn't know what you don't know.

Take it too him. Spend time with him. He is a really nice chap and you will learn so much if you ask the right questions that you will start to realise some returns from your investment.

(I have just read the comments that you are now in Germany etc. I am now in France, how do these things happen? So I understand that it won't be easy to visit Norman, but if you haven't met him, honestly, it would be so worth it)
 
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Without an alternator and no mention of a magneto(?), what keeps the ignition fire lit after the battery goes flat on a race bike built by Norman White?

I should know the answer, but my brain farts are turning into turds.
 
Schwany said:
Without an alternator and no mention of a magneto(?), what keeps the ignition fire lit after the battery goes flat on a race bike built by Norman White?

I should know the answer, but my brain farts are turning into turds.
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A fresh battery!

My battery will last a full weekend, but I choose to keep it topped up between sessions. And this is in no way unique to race bikes built by Norman. It is standard Norton twin race practice as used on race bikes built by Mick Hemmings, Steve Maney, Minnovation, NYC Norton, oh, and me!

Typically as battery voltage drops it will start to misfire at high RPM, unless you are foolish enough to use LiPo batteries....game over.
 
"I've some start spray ordered but still don't see how much difference it can make when both plugs are wet with fuel."

"have swapped spark plugs with my Roadster and still no joy"

Have you tried some NEW plugs, WOT?
 
PM999S, you mentioned removing the float bowls soon to clean ‘em out…

I would suggest removing the whole carbs. The pilot circuits that need a thorough check and clean are all in the main carb body.
 
SteveBorland said:
There's a lot of info on http://www.eurospares.com/elec.htm and https://www.rexs-speedshop.com/wp-c...Rita-Tips-Testing-Repairs-Rexs-Speed-Shop.pdf
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That all refers to the AB11 Inductive pick up amplifier. It is irrelevant to the Hall Effect item the OP has. And as posted before Mistral were the go to people for inductive Rita ignitions for many years

I had one of those inductive ignitions, it came from Thruxton in the '70s. It had the cut away timing cover and big pick up you see on the works JPNs. They jumpered out the advance circuit and ran fully advanced.

Typically, the AB 5 and AB11 blew output transitors....no spark. With the help of a TV enthusiast colleague we found a transistor that would work and repaired them!
 
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