Norman White PR starting problems

colin davie said:
I reckon the p/o would have spent a good £25 k on that build /. and he put it in to auction !
Me thinks you have an absolute bargin there
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Naturally, I don't want to break confidentiality with the previous owner but let's say it's in the ball park of buying a race-ready Manx Norton 500 instead!
 
colin davie said:
I reckon the p/o would have spent a good £25 k on that build /. and he put it in to auction !
Me thinks you have an absolute bargin there
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Sincerely and genuinely hope it's not one of those: 'Too good to be true' bargains that turns out not to be.. Good luck to the OP, a lovely looking piece of kit, to be sure..
 
It’s a fabulous machine alright. But if I was spending ’race ready Manx’ money, I’m pretty sure I’d have opted for a race ready Manx !
 
It's going to be something simple. Go methodically through the basics in a logical order and report back. I'd like to see that running on YouTube!
 
Mart UK said:
It's going to be something simple. Go methodically through the basics in a logical order and report back. I'd like to see that running on YouTube!
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Agreed , if plug leads had not been crossed then think , what could happen to a bike probably without an alternator... my next item would be to change the battery .
 
PM999S said:
Naturally, I don't want to break confidentiality with the previous owner but let's say it's in the ball park of buying a race-ready Manx Norton 500 instead!
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Well it's acting like a bike that was raced hard and put away wet.
 
Just to p**s everybody off, including me, it looks like this bike was sold at the Bonham's auction
(lot 791) of 4th July 2021 for ......... £8,625 including the buyers premium.

Well done PM999S. Totally envious.

Just pouring myself a large Gunpowder proof Pussar's rum ........
 
Staytite said:
Just to p**s everybody off, including me, it looks like this bike was sold at the Bonham's auction
(lot 791) of 4th July 2021 for ......... £8,625 including the buyers premium.

Well done PM999S. Totally envious.

Just pouring myself a large Gunpowder proof Pussar's rum ........
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The bare engine unit, in parts alone, cost more than that…
 
For all the 'crossed plug leads' comments... Doesn't the crank-mounted ignition use a single dual-output coil? Whatever is used, they're triggered from a single impulse, so I don't believe that's an issue?
A photo with the tank off would help to understand what's there.

My first port of call would be to remove the carbs and have them ultrasonically cleaned. Any bike which has been left standing is susceptible to blocked pilot passages as a minimum - I'd be surprised if they aren't.
I'd also confirm you've got all 4 valve clearances correct. If you're running steel pushrods the clearance will be miniscule, but still there.

It's clear you're working from a fairly limited experience base - no disrespect ;) - not everyone would be so honest!
If you've not already joined, join the Norton Owner's Club and try to get hold of a member in your area. Like us, they'll be only too happy to share their experience and support.
 
To me this is one of those nightmares scenarios - no idea what a previous owner did and no absolute knowledge of IF (or when) it EVER ran in its current configuration.

Since the OP has put gas straight into the cylinder and there is obviously plenty of compression, the fact that the engine won't start indicates an ignition problem. Of course, with a stock bike, that's easy to troubleshoot by following info in the owners/service manual. On this thing, however, it is all a mystery. Heck even the info received from the builder doesn't appear very helpful. I would have expected some step by step instructions on setting/adjusting the timing since it appears not to be particularly obvious based on the posts. Saying "it shouldn't have changed" is not helpful! ;) Who know if it was right when the OP bought it?
 
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An hour spent verifying camshaft timing would be prudent.
Norman White PR starting problems
 
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B+Bogus said:
For all the 'crossed plug leads' comments... Doesn't the crank-mounted ignition use a single dual-output coil? Whatever is used, they're triggered from a single impulse, so I don't believe that's an issue?
A photo with the tank off would help to understand what's there.

My first port of call would be to remove the carbs and have them ultrasonically cleaned. Any bike which has been left standing is susceptible to blocked pilot passages as a minimum - I'd be surprised if they aren't.
I'd also confirm you've got all 4 valve clearances correct. If you're running steel pushrods the clearance will be miniscule, but still there.

It's clear you're working from a fairly limited experience base - no disrespect ;) - not everyone would be so honest!
If you've not already joined, join the Norton Owner's Club and try to get hold of a member in your area. Like us, they'll be only too happy to share their experience and support.
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Of course, I'm first to admit I'm just a weekend tinkerer and have little experience of racing machinery other than riding them! I'm a fully paid up member of NOC but now living in Germany and most the members here listed in the Roadholder live up north some distance from me. I agree with your carb advice, though, as Norman has already suggested a clean out so I will take them off and send away to get professionally scrubbed out.
 
SteveA said:
Almost 100% that does not cover AB15, it does cover AB5 and AB11 amplifiers. They date back to the '70s and were used on the works Nortons! They were inductive pickup, hence the reference to a reluctor.

Mistral used to repair them and made replica amplifiers at one stage. Not today.

Hall Effect is generally used in later technology ignitions.
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There's a lot of info on http://www.eurospares.com/elec.htm and https://www.rexs-speedshop.com/wp-c...Rita-Tips-Testing-Repairs-Rexs-Speed-Shop.pdf
 
Fast Eddie said:
The question at this stage is NOT ‘is the timing perfectly bang on 28 degrees’ the question is ‘is the timing in the right ball park to allow it to run’…
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Agreed, from the look of it, the adjustment available would not be much so unlikely to have slipped far enough to stop it from starting on rollers, you are right about the plug leads, it wouldn't matter which way they are on a 360 crank trigger, I use a twin outlet coil on mine. without knowing how the rotor is fastened to the pulley though, could that have moved, how about a 270 deg crank just to throw another cat in the bag :)

Has it had a squirt of easystart yet?
 
If I understood correctly the spark looks good with the plug sitting on the head. Also, from various posts it appears that based on the ignition system, it doesn't matter if the plug leads go to the "wrong cylinder. Or maybe it does! ;) Obviously it's easy enough to do the following and then switch the plug leads to try again if the engine won't fire.

I'd set piston 1 at TDC - roughly, no need for a degree wheel or any fancy gear. Then I'd try to figure out how to adjust/set the timing (SURELY there are instructions for the particular ignition system somewhere)! I would then adjust the static timing to fire with the piston at TDC (0 advance). That will be too retarded for normal operation but it will make starting quite easy.

To take the carbs out of the equation, I would lock the throttle fully open, spray some gasoline into the carb inlet and crank the engine. Unless the ignition is not working at all (but it supposedly has a good spark), the engine will start/run for a couple of seconds.

That will at least get you into the ballpark of sorting things out. I wouldn't send the carbs anywhere yet. Wait until the ignition/timing is verified as working properly. Once the engine will fire, THEN try to operate it normally with the carbs. They will quickly demonstrate whether they need serious work, just some minor cleaning, or nothing at all.

As noted, this is really basic stuff but with an essentially unknown and totally non-stock engine like this, it can be quite difficult to just get it to some baseline where you can perform 'normal' adjustments/whatever maintenance to get it running properly/reliably
 
Have you checked the slides in the carbs are fully closing?
I only ask as when I bought an Indian royal Enfield that had been left to a mate of mine
It had stood for sometime
I tried to fire it on my rollers but nothing, it would bang now and then with easy start but refused to fire
I went to remove the carb to clean it and found the carb slide was being
held over half way open !
The throttle cable was at least 5/8" too short!
It can't have been run like that ?
I shortened the cable until the slide could shut (allowing the enrichment jet to work) and it fired right up
Infact it sat there idling almost laughing at me!!!
And it's not like I could ask the owner of he'd changed the cable!
As a footnote this was 3 years ago and it still won't start if you even think about opening the throttle also I have never yet got it to start using the enricher
It has to have the throttle closed to fire
 
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6 pages of collective knowledge troubleshooting text apparently can't make a Norman White prepared race motor run.

I don't think the bargain was such a bargain for a weekend tinkerer.
 
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