Norman White PR starting problems

[oldmikew]

If its end of crank ignition system then it might not have a waste spark , justa guess but it sounds as though the plug leads might be crossed..Simple enough to check

 

[triumph2]

Thanks for that and great to have as a reference, just have to invest in a timing disc now! That said, I've just spoken to Norman and he says its highly unlikely to have moved so a part strip of the carb bowls and jet blocks to check for gunk build up is his first suggestion.

British Cycle Supply has some information on Lucas Rita ignition set up for Commandos in their tech help files.

 

[PM999S]

What are we looking at here? Is this a custom made machine? Got more pics?

Here's one pic of the bike overall and the other a detail of the primary chaincase set up that Norman has constructed around a belt drive and dry clutch. There is only one wire coming out of the rear of the case and that might only be for the alternator so I'm not sure how to perform a manual timing set to retard the ignition enough just to get it running...

 

[PM999S]

Looks like you have a crank triggered ign?

That is definitely not standard. But Steve Maney et all all did this.

Basically it looks like you have quite a special machine. It also seems that perhaps you don’t fully realise what you’ve got.

I would consider an investment in Normans time (If he’s willing) to take the bike to him, let him give it a once over, and talk you through the bike, what’s special / different and what you need to know.

Yes I'm told it is a special build along the lines of Norman's Factory Proddy racers of the '70s. All I know from the previous owner, who admits to spending far too much money on it, is "it has a 750 cylinder head flowed by Norman, race high compression pistons, a Nourish short stroke crank, PW3 race cam all in a set of Steve Maney crank cases. The gearbox is a modern five speeder supplied by Mick Hemmings. The bike is fitted with 34mm Amal smoothbore carbs and big bore factory exhaust pipes and NWR silencers. Norman built the cycle parts based on a 1971 road frame, modified to factory spec with cotter pin reinforcement and raised and offset engine mounts. The rear hub was machined to take Manx rear sprockets. The front forks have new stanchions, and are fitted with Norman's sliders to suit his twin disk set up. I decided on 18 inch rims to give a wider choice of race rubber." I now live in Germany so it would be a bit of a trek to take it back to Norman to find out more...

 

[Fast Eddie]

Ahh, yes, trailering the bike from Germany to Andover and back would be a drag!

That is one very high spec and special motorcycle you got there though. A lot of stuff is way outside of the normal manuals etc.

SteveA is running a similar spec motor, so his advice should be helpful.

There are a few guys on here running crank mounted ignitions, but as far as I can recall, none are running Lucas.

All I’d advise is, take your time! Try and avoid (what might at times be a strong ) temptation to remove parts to revert to standard. EVERYTHING on that bike is there for a reason and is well proven and based on decades of top level experience (ie Norman‘s).

Alternatively… the bike looks awful, is never gonna run right, and will drive you insane… I’ll rescue you and give you £10k to take it off your hands…

 

[jan nelder]

is it a standard cam that you can fit a Pazon to the end of, and get it running? Meanwhile find out what the timing is now, of course. have you got a strobe light?

 

[cliffa]

Yes I'm told it is a special build along the lines of Norman's Factory Proddy racers of the '70s. All I know from the previous owner, who admits to spending far too much money on it, is "it has a 750 cylinder head flowed by Norman, race high compression pistons, a Nourish short stroke crank, PW3 race cam all in a set of Steve Maney crank cases. The gearbox is a modern five speeder supplied by Mick Hemmings. The bike is fitted with 34mm Amal smoothbore carbs and big bore factory exhaust pipes and NWR silencers. Norman built the cycle parts based on a 1971 road frame, modified to factory spec with cotter pin reinforcement and raised and offset engine mounts. The rear hub was machined to take Manx rear sprockets. The front forks have new stanchions, and are fitted with Norman's sliders to suit his twin disk set up. I decided on 18 inch rims to give a wider choice of race rubber." I now live in Germany so it would be a bit of a trek to take it back to Norman to find out more...

Beautiful bike - congrats on your good fortune.

Yes that's definitely a crank triggered setup, which should be much more accurate than running off the cam.

As an alternative, maybe Norman would be interested in coming over to you? You can but ask....

 

[PM999S]

Ahh, yes, trailering the bike from Germany to Andover and back would be a drag!

That is one very high spec and special motorcycle you got there though. A lot of stuff is way outside of the normal manuals etc.

SteveA is running a similar spec motor, so his advice should be helpful.

There are a few guys on here running crank mounted ignitions, but as far as I can recall, none are running Lucas.

All I’d advise is, take your time! Try and avoid (what might at times be a strong ) temptation to remove parts to revert to standard. EVERYTHING on that bike is there for a reason and is well proven and based on decades of top level experience (ie Norman‘s).

Alternatively… the bike looks awful, is never gonna run right, and will drive you insane… I’ll rescue you and give you £10k to take it off your hands…

Thanks for the advice and now I know it's a set-up I've no knowledge of, I will ask Norman how I can adjust the timing after I've stripped and cleaned the carb bowls, jets and needles which he said should be the first port of call. And thanks for the offer on the bike but no-one was as surprised as me when I won the auction for a lot less than that! (PS I forgot to mention Maney alloy barrels to),

 

[kommando]

but no-one was as surprised as me when I won the auction for a lot less than that!

Suggest with your luck you buy a few lottery tickets

Why not ask Norman who he would recommend in Germany to look the bike over,

THIEL MOTORSPORT in Heilbronn would be worth a try.​

Home

THIEL-Motorsport Heilbronn

www.thiel-motorsport.de

 

[oldmikew]

you canbe quite sure that whoever went to such trouble building the bike had it running. Coming back to an earlier post of Fast Eddie... its probably something quite simple that is stoppingit firing up.. Maybe not the mk2 carbs but crossed plug leads.. on standard set up the ei is rotating at half cranshaft speed so it fires twice per 360 d rotation. there is a waste spark and it does not matter which lead goes to which plug... On an end of cranksetup it will only fire once per 360and it is of crucial importance which lead goes to whhich plug just as it did onthe old lucas twin magnetos. Just swap the leads over and spin it up on the rollers and i am betting it willfire up

 

[Fast Eddie]

Thanks for the advice and now I know it's a set-up I've no knowledge of, I will ask Norman how I can adjust the timing after I've stripped and cleaned the carb bowls, jets and needles which he said should be the first port of call. And thanks for the offer on the bike but no-one was as surprised as me when I won the auction for a lot less than that! (PS I forgot to mention Maney alloy barrels to),

Well there you go then…protect your mental health AND make a profit!

PM me your address… I can be there by tomorrow afternoon…!

 

[cliffa]

I'm pretty certain the you would adjust the timing by slackening the screw I've highlighted, then the carrier / pickup would be free to rotate a few degrees on what I presume is a spigot screwed to the cover. Maybe that has been knocked out of position ?

 

[Fast Eddie]

you canbe quite sure that whoever went to such trouble building the bike had it running. Coming back to an earlier post of Fast Eddie... its probably something quite simple that is stoppingit firing up.. Maybe not the mk2 carbs but crossed plug leads.. on standard set up the ei is rotating at half cranshaft speed so it fires twice per 360 d rotation. there is a waste spark and it does not matter which lead goes to which plug... On an end of cranksetup it will only fire once per 360and it is of crucial importance which lead goes to whhich plug just as it did onthe old lucas twin magnetos. Just swap the leads over and spin it up on the rollers and i am betting it willfire up

I don’t think that’s quite right is it?

With a crank mounted ign it will fire every 360 degrees.

Therefore both plugs must fire surely? With one cylinder being on compression and one being on exhaust, which IS a wasted spark.

So, if I’ve got that right, the plug leads cannot be incorrectly fitted.

Or do I need another coffee ??

 

[oldmikew]

it could depending on the setup fire once every 360 degrees but be 180 out of phase... Any way easyenough to swp the leads over...

 

[Fast Eddie]

it could depending on the setup fire once every 360 degrees but be 180 out of phase... Any way easyenough to swp the leads over...

Good point. If it uses a stock alternator rotor it could have been set to the marker that is 180 degrees from the TDC marker. I’ve done that before !

Thats why it’s good practice to paint the TDC marker to make it very clear. Or remove the other one altogether.

 

[PM999S]

Good point. If it uses a stock alternator rotor it could have been set to the marker that is 180 degrees from the TDC marker. I’ve done that before !

Thats why it’s good practice to paint the TDC marker to make it very clear. Or remove the other one altogether.

FYI I've just had an email from Norman giving a bit more of en explanation although messig with this timing set up seems a bit out of my league: "The ignition is triggered directly from the drive side crankshaft. The gapped trigger forms the outside flange of the engine pulley. It passes through the pick up module which is mounted on the adjustable plate mounted on the outside of the cover. Dismantling and reassembling the cover entails some tricky work. Again I do not think the timing could have moved."

 

[Fast Eddie]

FYI I've just had an email from Norman giving a bit more of en explanation although messig with this timing set up seems a bit out of my league: "The ignition is triggered directly from the drive side crankshaft. The gapped trigger forms the outside flange of the engine pulley. It passes through the pick up module which is mounted on the adjustable plate mounted on the outside of the cover. Dismantling and reassembling the cover entails some tricky work. Again I do not think the timing could have moved."

Sounds like Norman is agreeing with Cliffa regarding how to adjust the timing.

And he’s also sounding in agreement with me in that it shouldn’t have moved!

Seems to me you‘re in a catch 22, if you need to strobe the timing to check it… but can’t start the motor…! Unless your rollers can turn the wheel that fast!?

If you haven’t already, I’d ask Norton for a static timing method (it should be the same timing mark I think, but best to check with uncle Norm), just to rule ign timing out of your enquires completely.

Cos although it shouldn’t have ‘slipped’, you just don’t know what the PO has done. Maybe he removed the primary cover and put it back incorrectly?

The question at this stage is NOT ‘is the timing perfectly bang on 28 degrees’ the question is ‘is the timing in the right ball park to allow it to run’…

 

[baz]

FYI I've just had an email from Norman giving a bit more of en explanation although messig with this timing set up seems a bit out of my league: "The ignition is triggered directly from the drive side crankshaft. The gapped trigger forms the outside flange of the engine pulley. It passes through the pick up module which is mounted on the adjustable plate mounted on the outside of the cover. Dismantling and reassembling the cover entails some tricky work. Again I do not think the timing could have moved."

I don't think the timing could have moved either
But what else has been done since it left Norman?
I'm not sure how the crank fired ignition works ,I assume a single pickup? So swapping the leads would make no difference
But still worth a try

 

[colin davie]

I reckon the p/o would have spent a good £25 k on that build /. and he put it in to auction !
Me thinks you have an absolute bargin there

 

[PM999S]

Good point. If it uses a stock alternator rotor it could have been set to the marker that is 180 degrees from the TDC marker. I’ve done that before !

Thats why it’s good practice to paint the TDC marker to make it very clear. Or remove the other one altogether.

Have just tried switching over leads and not even a sparodic cough now so will take Norman's advice and strip the bottoms off the carbs to clean and if that don't work maybe try Kommando's recommendation of Thiel Motorsport in Heilbronn (a place I stayed several times on touring jobs for MCN back in the '80s!).