Norman White PR starting problems

Fast Eddie said:
Depends what you mean by ‘proven’ TW?

Sure the stock set up is ‘proven’ to work. But Steve Maney and Norman both take some beating when it comes to being proven on the track, and both swear by crank mounted ignitions.

The OPs bike is a race bike built by Norman,

But on a road bike of stock tune I’d definitely agree there’s nothing to gain.
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I would not like to put a Hall Effect sensor near a stock charging rotor or any other magnetic item separate to the sensor itself.

I was thinking off the shelf Boyer, Pazon (that has a Boyer connection ?) programmable Tri Spark, PowerArc < ? , there is even a Wassell ignition (iirc)
All pretty much proven reliable it seems. (with a decent loom and grounds)

Maybe it is or is like the white PR on the Norman White website.

 
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Time Warp said:
I would not like to put a Hall Effect sensor near a stock charging rotor or any other magnetic item separate to the sensor itself.

I was thinking off the shelf Boyer, Pazon (that has a Boyer connection ?) programmable Tri Spark, PowerArc < ? , there is even a Wassell ignition (iirc)
All pretty much proven reliable it seems. (with a decent loom and grounds)

Maybe it is or is like the white PR on the Norman White website.

Click to expand...
I don’t know what Norman uses as a ‘base’, I doubt it’s a unique ignition, Steve used a Boyer, but whatever they use, I’m not sure how they might be modified inside or out.
 
Hi TW
I have one of Steve's crankcase mounted Boyer systems. I took it off as it is a plate mounted on 3 pillars from the crankcase & the rotor runs outside the crank pulley. I had too much invested in those crankcases running unfaired to risk it! What I will say is that the engine is smoother with the crank mounted ignition. Steve said there was a horsepower gain but off idle & up the revs it was cleaner.
 
Have you telephoned Norman White? He sounds like the sort of chap who would chat to you about what you have in your build and the potential source of your trouble.
 
Time Warp said:
I would not like to put a Hall Effect sensor near a stock charging rotor or any other magnetic item separate to the sensor itself.

I was thinking off the shelf Boyer, Pazon (that has a Boyer connection ?) programmable Tri Spark, PowerArc < ? , there is even a Wassell ignition (iirc)
All pretty much proven reliable it seems. (with a decent loom and grounds)

Maybe it is or is like the white PR on the Norman White website.

Click to expand...
I am pretty sure all of this was covered further up in the thread, which explains exactly what is on this bike and covers other installations.

The Thruxton race shop were early adopters of the Lucas Rita Ignition system, which is what is fitted to that PR. And which is at least two steps removed to the ignition on the PR that is the subject of this thread.

What you are looking at is the large pickup that they had to modify the timing cover for. Lucas then developed a much smaller pick up which mounted entirely within the ignition cover.

I didn't see anyone else using one of these cutaway timing covers in the '70s, except Tony Smith, who sold one to me...

I do think Gus Kuhn may have had a couple. The one I had had come from the race shop and had the advance circuit linked out and only ran full advanced.

Why would you want a crank pickup? Well I had a Maney one and as soon as you strobe the ignition the additional stability of the timing is striking. No chain flopping around.

Why didn't Norton do it then?, I hear you ask. Well, they simply ran out of time! The crank that was in the bike I fitted the ex Thruxton ignition to came from the Experimental shop. It was a MkIII crank and had been used in a rig that was testing 'crank triggered ignition'. I was able to buy an engine as a kit of parts from the guy just after he was made redundant in 1975....as Norton were closing.

Several current racers use the crank triggered ignition in several designs, and all quite successfully.

Bruno Perlinski fits a self generating type to most of the bikes he builds.
 
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Chris said:
Hi TW
I have one of Steve's crankcase mounted Boyer systems. I took it off as it is a plate mounted on 3 pillars from the crankcase & the rotor runs outside the crank pulley. I had too much invested in those crankcases running unfaired to risk it! What I will say is that the engine is smoother with the crank mounted ignition. Steve said there was a horsepower gain but off idle & up the revs it was cleaner.
Click to expand...
Yep, I have some of those parts too, but the belt wrecked the rotating magnet.....
 
Fast Eddie said:
I don’t know what Norman uses as a ‘base’, I doubt it’s a unique ignition, Steve used a Boyer, but whatever they use, I’m not sure how they might be modified inside or out.
Click to expand...
It is described earlier in this thread...it is Lucas and a derivation of earlier systems used by Norman and Thruxton.......

This ignition is similar to the one fitted to Norman's own 1972 style race bike.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I don’t know what Norman uses as a ‘base’, I doubt it’s a unique ignition, Steve used a Boyer, but whatever they use, I’m not sure how they might be modified inside or out.
Click to expand...
Steve's Boyer box was modified by Boyer to give a different advance curve, all of the pickup parts apart from the pic up plate were his manufacture, it is still shown on his website.

I was originally a bit sceptical about the modified advance curve, because of course the outside of the box tells you nothing about this. Steve used to say that his ignition gave about an extra 2bhp, and in his experience it even reduced the measured exhaust noise a little!

But, after the pickup failed I just installed a cam driven pickup and carried on using the Maney Boyer box....with a strobe you could actually see that the advance curve ran through half of the range of a cam pick up one. Considering I set it for fully advanced and started it on rollers that didn't seem to be a huge problem, but I moved to a Pazon which I feel has been better in most respects, it certainly seems to start more readily. I have played with jetting for initial roll on a lot since then, so it is hard to say which improvements are ignition and which are jetting, probably a combination. It is certainly an easy bike to ride as far as throttle response is concerned, and that holds with all 4 or the cams that have been in it and both 34 and 36 mm Mikunis.
 
I am late to this thread but has anyone thought to mention the possibility of a blown head gasket between the cylinders? I would think the rollers would have started it but we used to see a lit of this back in the day on bikes with paper head gaskets.
 
Chris said:
Hi TW
I have one of Steve's crankcase mounted Boyer systems. I took it off as it is a plate mounted on 3 pillars from the crankcase & the rotor runs outside the crank pulley. I had too much invested in those crankcases running unfaired to risk it! What I will say is that the engine is smoother with the crank mounted ignition. Steve said there was a horsepower gain but off idle & up the revs it was cleaner.
Click to expand...
Hi Chris
I notice now Pazon have a generic Smart-Fire crankshaft mounted ignition kit where you make you own mount for the sensor and a rotor.
Maybe I could get the sensor for my ignition and make that a future project having the space with the stator and rotor moved inboard (Duplex primary)

Smart-Fire Crank Trig. Twin 4 Stroke :: Smart-Fire Ignitions :: Products :: Pazon Ignitions Limited

Smart-Fire Crank Trig. Twin 4 Stroke. Crankshaft triggered competition ignition system.Adaptable to many 4 stroke twin cylinder engines.Engineering facilities required to install. Overview of Digital & Analogue Ignition Systems. Classic bike & car electronic ignitions for road & racing.
www.pazon.com
 
Time Warp said:
Hi Chris
I notice now Pazon have a generic Smart-Fire crankshaft mounted ignition kit where you make you own mount for the sensor and a rotor.
Maybe I could get the sensor for my ignition and make that a future project having the space with the stator and rotor moved inboard (Duplex primary)

Smart-Fire Crank Trig. Twin 4 Stroke :: Smart-Fire Ignitions :: Products :: Pazon Ignitions Limited

Smart-Fire Crank Trig. Twin 4 Stroke. Crankshaft triggered competition ignition system.Adaptable to many 4 stroke twin cylinder engines.Engineering facilities required to install. Overview of Digital & Analogue Ignition Systems. Classic bike & car electronic ignitions for road & racing.
www.pazon.com
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1645806755852.jpeg


This is a Maney ignition installed....... it didn't last long!

I have seen several with pick ups mounted on the crankcase face, between the belt runs with a reluctor on the rear of the pulley, that is the way to go.
 
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That does look a very precarious location for the ignition, road or race.

"In back to back Dyno testing, my ignition system gave 2 to 3 more horsepower than the conventionally mounted ignitions. I have also developed the ignition curve to suit the Commando motor. This is one of the best tuning modifications money can buy."
 
Hi Time Warp Steve
As per Ralph's set up a trigger on the rear of the crank pulley & a pickup on the crankcases between the top & bottom belt run. This seems to be the way to go. I will be running an Ignitech system like this one day lol. Some risk but nothing like Steve's original set up. Mind you Steve always ran a full fairing & probably incorporated a bit more protection.
 
I ran a Dyna system originally for a Suzuki 1100 on my Weslake, with the pick ups (2 off, 180 crank.) on a plate that was screwed to the crankcase.

Haven't got all the bits I need (Alton ES) so I can see whether it fits/adaptable for my Commando project yet.
Keen to use it if I can, it's got several diff' advance curves (Switchable) and a (Also) switchable rev limiter.

Initially run outboard, but quickly swapped to inboard, more rigid mount!
 
Big_Jim59 said:
I am late to this thread but has anyone thought to mention the possibility of a blown head gasket between the cylinders? I would think the rollers would have started it but we used to see a lit of this back in the day on bikes with paper head gaskets.
Click to expand...
It appears to have a copper head gasket with no obvious signs of blowing but, that said, if the Pazon ignition I have on order doesn't work it might be worth popping the head off just to check.
 
PM999S said:
It appears to have a copper head gasket with no obvious signs of blowing but, that said, if the Pazon ignition I have on order doesn't work it might be worth popping the head off just to check.
Click to expand...
I can’t see how a copper gasket, with no visible signs of leakage, could possibly leak between the cylinder so badly as too prevent the engine from running.
Given the time and effort involved in removing the head, I’d certainly be looking elsewhere first.
 
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