Which would YOU have......?

Gojuu said:
Who craves that answer? Like really.
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Seems many on this forum do from the constantly reoccurring assertion that the 750/850 are better.

How long will it take for a 750/850 to destroy it's ignition contact points? How often will it need tappet adjustments? Oil leaks anyone? Loose headers clamps? Poor shifting because the primary chain need adjustment? On and on.....
Of course I'm referring to a stock from-the-factory 750/850. Not one that has had its owner lavish countless hours on it, repairing it, and installing later designed solutions to poorly engineered components, or parts manufactured from better materials.

I think from a design, and engineering perspective, the 961 is clearly the better machine. However, thanks to SG, even a sound design which is not developed properly before its introduction can fall flat on its face.
That is unfortunately, the 961's epitaph.
 
L
BritTwit said:
Seems many on this forum do from the constantly reoccurring assertion that the 750/850 are better.

How long will it take for a 750/850 to destroy it's ignition contact points? How often will it need tappet adjustments? Oil leaks anyone? Loose headers clamps? Poor shifting because the primary chain need adjustment? On and on.....
Of course I'm referring to a stock from-the-factory 750/850. Not one that has had its owner lavish countless hours on it, repairing it, and installing later designed solutions to poorly engineered components, or parts manufactured from better materials.

I think from a design, and engineering perspective, the 961 is clearly the better machine. However, thanks to SG, even a sound design which is not developed properly before its introduction can fall flat on its face.
That is unfortunately, the 961's epitaph.
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Those original Lucas ignition points are of crazy high quality. I know the Lucas name is long besmerched but I run the original Commando ignition on my Vincent. One set of breaker points will do 60,000 miles! They are made of good stuff. US made automotive points were garbage in comparison.
Other than the exhaust threads, I haven't had the other problems you mention, but it's early days, she's only 48 years old!
And you can see that I run her very gently:)
Honestly this bike has had very little done to it other than the front brake upgrade.
The bike has always shifted great, just like in the video.
Primary chain adjustment is automatic on this bike, I don't touch it. (hydraulic)

Glen
 
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worntorn said:
This might give you an idea of the available performance. We ran the bikes up to 110 mph.
The front bike is a 750 with a Comstock head with D exhaust ports, raised compression and lumpy cam.
The rear bike is my 850, engine all stock but open silencers fitted.
I think they sound great and go quite nicely.

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Certainly quicker than I expected it to be Glen, but I think the comparison remains rather mute as others have said - different generation of bike. Fits in OK with the ‘which would you have‘ thread title though.

Aesthetics is personal preference of course and resale value not really valid. I don’t see the original commando topping the 961 on any measure other than ease of maintenance maybe, which no doubt a vintage owner would need to do quite a lot more of.

As you would expect maybe, from a modern iteration of the technology with increased capacity, top quality brakes/suspension and wearing sports rubber. Assuming new/re-engineered bike reliability of course - but we ain’t talking Garner era here - no reason to assume unreliability IMO. It’ll have to prove itself long term naturally.

Personal preference for ownership of course! I’m gonna sneak a black/gold 850 past The Fuhrer at some stage - maybe she just won’t notice:oops:!
 
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BritTwit said:
Seems many on this forum do from the constantly reoccurring assertion that the 750/850 are better.

How long will it take for a 750/850 to destroy it's ignition contact points? How often will it need tappet adjustments? Oil leaks anyone? Loose headers clamps? Poor shifting because the primary chain need adjustment? On and on.....
Of course I'm referring to a stock from-the-factory 750/850. Not one that has had its owner lavish countless hours on it, repairing it, and installing later designed solutions to poorly engineered components, or parts manufactured from better materials.

I think from a design, and engineering perspective, the 961 is clearly the better machine. However, thanks to SG, even a sound design which is not developed properly before its introduction can fall flat on its face.
That is unfortunately, the 961's epitaph.
Click to expand...
The constantly reoccuring assertion from the same 5 or so people you mean?

A small number bringing the same thing up ad nauseum isn't "many people".

The 961 isn't dead, so doesn't have an epitaph.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
. Fits in OK with the ‘which would you have‘ thread title though.

Aesthetics is personal preference of course and resale value not really valid. I don’t see the original commando topping the 961 on any measure
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I'm not sure why resale value isn't a valid part of any comparison. At some point all of these bikes get sold, even if it is done by your heirs. It's helpful if the bike has good value. If the bike happens to triple in value over the years you are getting enjoyment from riding and owning the bike, that seems a really nice bonus for most of us.




Glen
 
worntorn said:
I'm not sure why resale value isn't a valid part of any comparison. At some point all of these bikes get sold, even if it is done by your heirs. It's helpful if the bike has good value. If the bike happens to triple in value over the years you are getting enjoyment from riding and owning the bike, that seems a really nice bonus for most of us.




Glen
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So, in terms of "which would you have" do you mean the Twin or the 961?
 
Wanna know what’s funny?
We’re comparing what bike is better? A new 961 or a 50 year old Norton.
Wow! Is this what it’s come to?

No evolution?

961 has….
More CC displacement. Check
Better suspension. Check
Better brakes. Check
Better performance. Questionable
More weight. Check
More dependable. Questionable
Parts largely made in China or in Asian countries. Check
Resale valve that drops like a rock. Check

Classic Commando has…
Less CC displacement but can be made larger. Check
Lesser suspension but can be improved. Check
Lesser brakes but can be improved. Check
Better performance. Can be. Check
Lighter weight. Check
More dependable. Can be. Check
Parts largely made in the UK and assembled by true British workers. Check
Holds resale value and has the COOL vintage factor that a 961 don’t / won’t have.

Choose one.
A brand new original classic Commando that’s been sitting in a museum like setting for 50 years. Or a new 961.

I’ll take the classic and either leave it original or send it to NYC Norton for a track / street build.
 

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Voodooo said:
Wanna know what’s funny?
We’re comparing what bike is better? A new 961 or a 50 year old Norton.
Wow! Is this what it’s come to?

No evolution?

961 has….
More CC displacement. Check
Better suspension. Check
Better brakes. Check
Better performance. Questionable
More weight. Check
More dependable. Questionable
Parts largely made in China or in Asian countries. Check
Resale valve that drops like a rock. Check

Classic Commando has…
Less CC displacement but can be made larger. Check
Lesser suspension but can be improved. Check
Lesser brakes but can be improved. Check
Better performance. Can be. Check
Lighter weight. Check
More dependable. Can be. Check
Parts largely made in the UK and assembled by true British workers. Check
Holds resale value and has the COOL vintage factor that a 961 don’t / won’t have.

Choose one.
A brand new original classic Commando that’s been sitting in a museum like setting for 50 years. Or a new 961.

I’ll take the classic and either leave it original or send it to NYC Norton for a track / street build.
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Naaaah, it's just the argument people want to start cause they don't want to go and fit new points........
 
‘Just a bit of fun - add to, expand or ignore😉’

That didn’t really work as a suggestion did it; we don’t do light-hearted debate that well! Who brought this up?🤣

I mention re-sale value not being valid as the Birmingham 961 has no re-sale history to compare. We’re not talking the resale compromised Donington 961 - so ‘drops like a rock’ is not really valid.

Better performance? The questionable nature of that questionable comment is definitely questionable! And the ‘go-corner-stop’ award goes to the 50 year old bike with the skinny tyres!? Questionable!🙃

A brand-new-in-crate (or museum) 50 year old Commando Voodoo? Does that even exist? If so I‘ll choose that every time, sell it for a motza and buy one of these - so I don‘t need to worry about fitting new points, or ‘none-true British workers? ;)

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PS - how dare they put those Italian Rizoma parts on a British bike that’s made in France!? My head hurts!
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
‘Just a bit of fun - add to, expand or ignore😉’

That didn’t really work as a suggestion did it; we don’t do light-hearted debate that well! Who brought this up?🤣

I mention re-sale value not being valid as the Birmingham 961 has no re-sale history to compare. We’re not talking the resale compromised Donington 961 - so ‘drops like a rock’ is not really valid.

Better performance? The questionable nature of that questionable comment is definitely questionable! And the ‘go-corner-stop’ award goes to the 50 year old bike with the skinny tyres!? Questionable!🙃

A brand-new-in-crate (or museum) 50 year old Commando Voodoo? Does that even exist? If so I‘ll choose that every time, sell it for a motza and buy one of these - so I don‘t need to worry about fitting new points, or ‘none-true British workers? ;)

View attachment 108734

PS - how dare they put those Italian Rizoma parts on a British bike that’s made in France!? My head hurts!
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I’m mentioning resale value because the used market can be had with both the classic and Donington 961.
If you look at the market, the 961 doesn’t even come close to what they sold for new most of the time.
A classic in fair condition sells for more now then it did new.

I’ve seen 2 still in the crate classic commandos for sale, and selling no where near what that new Brough Superior is selling for.

Skinny tires or not, on a track, with a pro rider, properly set up, I’ll put my money on the classic. Same day, same track, same rider.

The new Brough is nice, but to me, it’s too much. Too much as in too busy looking. Reminds me of Steam punk.
The lines are off and that headlight to bikini fairing is grossly odd.

The switch cubes remind me of chrome Harley pieces.
 

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A well set up standard vintage Commando, racing a well set up standard Birmingham 961 - same day, same track, same rider.

And the vintage bike takes it? I’ve never ridden an original Commando but that genuinly surprises me - :oops: - who'd've thunk!
 
And don’t forget to use old fuel and old engine oil has well on the classic
 
A few years ago a 961 rider was leaving the pub the same time as me on my 750
He asked what road I was going on and when I replied he said he'd be using the same road
And quipped he'd be passing me at some stage along it !
This was a red rag to a bull ,needless to say he never did get past me and his headlight gradually disappeared after each bend
I'm the first to admit I was being silly especially as it was pitch black
And my bike is highly modified in the handling department
So not really a fair comparison
 
"Tyres alone would win it."

Bikes like the 961 or 850 with low horsepower are faster with skinny tires.
The wide tires are needed to put the power of a sportbike or GP bike (250bhp!) to ground.
Other than that, the wide tires detract from speed and handling. Big tires on a low powered bike are just a trendy styling exercise.
Try outrunning a skinny tired Norton Manx with your fat tired 961.

I roadraced an aggressive rider on a Thruxton R with my 850 and the 850 won. I picked the road.
He is knee down rider so I took him to a local mountain road that is so twisty that there is no time to get a knee down. Also, the power of the 850 is about all that can be used there, so all of his extra power was useless.
The skinny tires are wonderful for chucking the bike side to side at speed.
Afterwards he wanted to know what had been modified on the Commando suspension to make it outhandle his 1200 R.
I told him the truth, it is as it left the factory in 1975, all the same items, nothing replaced or even rebuilt.
There is 5 year old oil in the forks I suppose, so that is fairly new!



Glen
 
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