Which would YOU have......?

Fast Eddie said:
The guffaws are real SS. Reliability track record of the 961 doesn’t compete with a well sorted original Commando.
Click to expand...
Yeah, nah.

Bolting an entire aftermarket catalog of updates isn't "well sorted".
 
Clive said:
Errrrrrrmmmmm so does a well sorted Commando compete with a well sorted 961?
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Don't forget we were talking only about reliability. In the context of buying a 961 to have ‘modern reliability‘.

Lots and lots of original Commandos have done very high mileages with only minor modifications (ie electronic ign, reed valve breathers, and the like). So I’d certainly stand by my claim.

As I mentioned previously, AFAIK most (or all) the 961s with significant mileage on them have had fairly extensive work done.

I‘m not for one moment suggesting that the 961 cannot be made reliable. I assume that a blueprinted and modified 961 would be reliable Clive, but it wasn’t really the context of the conversation regarding buying a 961 to have ‘modern reliability’ vs a classic bike.
 
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Clive said:
Errrrrrrmmmmm so does a well sorted Commando compete with a well sorted 961?
Click to expand...
That begs the question, why hasn't a long term ownership test been done between a classic Commando, and a 961?
Say, 3-4,000 miles of average use, side by side, and reveal the good and bad of each Commando.
A 750 or 850 restored to as new condition, not with better than original components, just original OEM type quality, and a garden variety 961.
That would give us all the answers we crave.

This day out on the road stuff we see in uTube videos is completely useless.
 
961al said:
My Speed Twin is booked in to have a full system installed and remap in october ( he's very busy)... that should sort the sound... and the snatchy throttle in low gears/low speed.... ( the test bike 961 had perfect fuelling)... i actually enjoy the vibration the 961 brings (no, not that way)... it's not TOO much... the Triumph is too smooth, too sterile. characterless... Yes it's better than the Norton in almost every way... but the Norton put a bigger smile on my face. And i still think the 961 (sport) i rode in the test handled better than my Speed Twin, even with K tech razors on the rear.
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That’s very interesting and I wouldn’t have thought that.

I did find the handling on my 961 excellent, even more surprisingly, on track days too.

But I would have lost my money as I’d have bet on the Triumph in this case !
 
TonyA said:
Hello 961al , So , Is it possible that the comparison review you posted is the true opinion of the testers ? And not a bone thrown to Norton ? You own both so do others . I can say that my 961 Commando is faster and handles better than my 2004 Air cooled Triumph Thruxton. So , back in 2010 when the 961 Norton came out it was more competitive with the similar machines available at the time .
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Having waited almost 3 years after placing a deposit to receive my first 961.... ( i could write a book- 11 failed delivery date promises... i even had the salesman at the time ring me up to have me listen to 'my' bike running, saying i'll have it by the end of the week- i got it 18 months later... going down to Donington to surprise Garner- he locked himself in his office and wouldn't come out ! etc etc...) i can assure you i haven't been a 'fan' of the Norton company for quite a while.... until my faith was restored riding the test bike... my review was a totally honest one- i certainly wasn't paid a salary to write it..... As regards how the Speed Twin and 961 compare handling wise- yes, the Triumph handles very well, but is numb... the 961 i test rode handled brilliantly... but with loads of feedback and feel....
 
961al said:
Having waited almost 3 years after placing a deposit to receive my first 961.... ( i could write a book- 11 failed delivery date promises... i even had the salesman at the time ring me up to have me listen to 'my' bike running, saying i'll have it by the end of the week- i got it 18 months later... going down to Donington to surprise Garner- he locked himself in his office and wouldn't come out ! etc etc...) i can assure you i haven't been a 'fan' of the Norton company for quite a while.... until my faith was restored riding the test bike... my review was a totally honest one- i certainly wasn't paid a salary to write it..... As regards how the Speed Twin and 961 compare handling wise- yes, the Triumph handles very well, but is numb... the 961 i test rode handled brilliantly... but with loads of feedback and feel....
Click to expand...
What % commission are you on Al ?? ;)
 
My take on the value discussion.
I understand but tend to look away from the emphasis on the price/value arguments. For example, there are also endless and useless threads on this topic on the Porsche and Ferrari forums, as some of you know.
In our case, a difference of some thousands of pounds is not a big deal when it comes to the purchase of a motorcycle anyway. Of course, if you can only get the Triumph and not the Norton, but would rather like the Norton and are taking the Triumph as the next best thing, then I get it, but that is probably a rare scenario. All of the things I own, I have really wanted badly enough to actually go and buy, sometimes at relatively big expense. I have them to keep, not to sell for a profit or loss. If you look at it this way, suddenly the decisions are easy. This becomes clearer over time. Things such as these are emotional investments, and the longer you have them and experience them, the more they give. I can´t imagine voluntarily selling the Norton, it´s like selling your arm, and we´ve only had it for a few months. In the end, it is all just experiences and memories. Therefore, the price is only a yes or no junction, everything else that follows is what you make it.
Once this is out of the way, we get to what really matters, the tangibles of how any motorcycle does what it does, and there it is up to anyone to decide what best fits their preference. In my mind, you should only buy what you really cannot resist, and then the question should only be if you can afford it or not. Not if you are getting good value. If you think this way, you will buy a Honda. Not that that is bad, but only if you want a Honda.
To me, giving too much thought to any price differences of less than hundreds of percent is beside the point, and in the end all of this is still happening in the absolute value range of around 20 thousand pounds. If we want to go that way, and I have been thinking about it, let´s discuss 961 vs. Godet Egli Vincent. There you will have my attention.
 
Seems a slight tangent given the thread is about the Birmingham 961, but I don’t think we are saying/inferring that the Donington 961 requires somewhere near a blueprint rebuild to be made reliable are we?

No avoiding the technical difficulties with this model of course - much of which seems to depend on whether you got a Monday or a Friday bike - but given ‘the usual‘ mods, upgrades and adjustments, where does that leave projected reliability? Sir Stu clearly has a lot of (really) happy customers roaring around the UK. Where do we see long term reliability for these guys?

People with technical difficulties come to this forum or FB, I often wonder about what the rest (majority?) are doing. Are they happily clocking up the miles, or are many low mileage garage queens or up for sale to become someone else’s problem? Given the average owners age, I‘m not sure how many would be interested in social media if they’re motoring on, as is borne out by the relative low number who comment here and on FB.

My CR has been reliable so far (6 years - relatively low mileage); I’m not classing the gear change rod, re-making a +ve cable and changing a few relays as significant. I’m under no illusion that I may have serious issues as mileage climbs, but luckily I’ve purchased an emu shaped helmet which I bury my head in. When/if issues arise I’ll deal with them.

For our shared love of comparisons, a riding mates Ducati V4S spent half of its life in the dealer, on half the mileage of my CR, before it was kindly euthanised by an 18 yr old girl.

I’ve never ridden a well sorted original Commando, but on what measure would one even in really good fettle match a Birmingham 961? Seems (very) unlikely to the uneducated (that’s me by the way)?
 
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BritTwit said:
That begs the question, why hasn't a long term ownership test been done between a classic Commando, and a 961?
Say, 3-4,000 miles of average use, side by side, and reveal the good and bad of each Commando.
A 750 or 850 restored to as new condition, not with better than original components, just original OEM type quality, and a garden variety 961.
That would give us all the answers we crave.

This day out on the road stuff we see in uTube videos is completely useless.
Click to expand...
Who craves that answer? Like really.

Anyone that buys either bike has committed to what they want waaaaaaay before the purchase.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
I’ve never ridden a well sorted original Commando, but on what measure would one even in really good fettle match a Birmingham 961? Seems (very) unlikely to the uneducated (that’s me by the way)?
Click to expand...
"cause it's got carbs and they can tinker with the little screws on them. :rolleyes:
 
Strong points for an original Commando are
1. Weight. A Kickstart 850 would be about 70 lbs lighter than a 961. An estart bike is about 40 lbs lighter.
2. They run very well as delivered from the factory. My 48 year old 850 is still on all of its original engine and transmission internals. It is coming up on 50,000 miles now and the only engine work required to date has been a head gasket replacement awhile ago.
The bike still runs strong and is ready to go.
When my Thruxton R battery recently died and I had a ferry to catch I hopped on the Commando instead for a 250 mile trip. I've done many much longer trips with it without issue.
3. Vibration. These bikes are smooth. No buzzing blurry mirrors just smooth running all day long.
4. Parts availability. You can buy the whole bike in parts and have them here in a week or less.
5. Midrange torque. The 850s in particular have gobs of it. They don't need to rev hard to accelerate hard, but they will rev nicely if asked to.
The sound is glorious. Personally I much prefer the sound of 360 degree
Twin to a 270 degree such as the 961 or Triumph 1200.
6. They just look right. Subjective of course, but few would argue against that statement.
7. They are a very simple motor to work on. I think any one with a bit of mechanical ability and a good workshop manual could pull one down and rebuild it.
8. They are appreciating in value while we enjoy riding them.


Glen
 
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Sounds like a hell of a bike Glen - a keeper no doubt and I would love a black/gold 850 as a twin to the 961 - if I could find space and a safe route past er-indoors! I’m the wrong guy to debate this comparison though; we rather need someone who’s owned both. I’ll give a starter though, just for shitz’n’giggles!

Not sure whether it’s even appropriate to compare (961 to original) given the different era and the obvious advancements in suspension, braking and overall performance. Remembering that we’re talking about the Birmingham Norton here, although there would be very little to distinguish that from a sorted Donington bike.

Appearance

Way to subjective, but to most 961 owners this would be the No.1 reason for purchase, along with marque loyalty. Bitchin‘ good looks to most, except vintage owners I suspect 😄. The very first thing that drags people over for a look wherever ya go, along with the badge. You boys snigger at the tank - I think it’s the most striking, Norton appropriate element.

Performance:

Engine: Hardly the 961’s strongest point but with a larger capacity/HP/torque output, more modern machine its unlikely to be matched in acceleration, mid range or top end by a vintage Commando.

Handling: Sweet handling hand built frame, Ohlins and access to performance rubber would see the 961 on top would be my guess.

Braking: No comparison - the 961 Brembo stoppers are awesome - ABS is gonna help with difficult situations.

Reliability:

Norton say that they’ve sorted the 961’s technical problems and all indications are that is the case. Only time and long term testing will tell for sure. My opinion is that Birmingham Norton has way too much to lose to have shortcut the re-engineering process.

Spares:

Full spares availability for the 961, but certain promise to be very expensive. Long term success of the company is not assured to guarantee future access. Few aftermarket spares available.

Maintenance:

Not difficult to work on although fuel injection and electronics add complexity. Maintenance network will be limited in the UK until Norton fully establish. God bless Motorvated and all who visit her.

Vibration and feedback:

Yes please - plenty! I wanna know I’m riding a big parallel twin bike and not an appliance.

Re-sale value:

This one goes to the original commando, certainly in Aus. A good quality example 25-35K, maybe higher. New 961 is too virgin to have any resale stats. Will it be a classic one day?

Just a bit of fun - add too, expand or ignore😉

Steve.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Sounds like a hell of a bike Glen - a keeper no doubt and I would love a black/gold 850 as a twin to the 961 - if I could find space and a safe route past er-indoors! I’m the wrong guy to debate this comparison though; we rather need someone who’s owned both. I’ll give a starter though, just for shitz’n’giggles!

Not sure whether it’s even appropriate to compare (961 to original) given the different era and the obvious advancements in suspension, braking and overall performance. Remembering that we’re talking about the Birmingham Norton here, although there would be very little to distinguish that from a sorted Donington bike.

Appearance

Way to subjective, but to most 961 owners this would be the No.1 reason for purchase, along with marque loyalty. Bitchin‘ good looks to most, except vintage owners I suspect 😄. The very first thing that drags people over for a look wherever ya go, along with the badge. You boys snigger at the tank - I think it’s the most striking, Norton appropriate element.

Performance:

Engine: Hardly the 961’s strongest point but with a larger capacity/HP/torque output, more modern machine its unlikely to be matched in acceleration, mid range or top end by a vintage Commando.

Handling: Sweet handling hand built frame, Ohlins and access to performance rubber would see the 961 on top would be my guess.

Braking: No comparison - the 961 Brembo stoppers are awesome - ABS is gonna help with difficult situations.

Reliability:

Norton say that they’ve sorted the 961’s technical problems and all indications are that is the case. Only time and long term testing will tell for sure. My opinion is that Birmingham Norton has way too much to lose to have shortcut the re-engineering process.

Spares:

Full spares availability for the 961, but certain promise to be very expensive. Long term success of the company is not assured to guarantee future access. Few aftermarket spares available.

Maintenance:

Not difficult to work on although fuel injection and electronics add complexity. Maintenance network will be limited in the UK until Norton fully establish. God bless Motorvated and all who visit her.

Vibration and feedback:

Yes please - plenty! I wanna know I’m riding a big parallel twin bike and not an appliance.

Re-sale value:

This one goes to the original commando, certainly in Aus. A good quality example 25-35K, maybe higher. New 961 is too virgin to have any resale stats. Will it be a classic one day?

Just a bit of fun - add too, expand or ignore😉

Steve.
Click to expand...
I’ve owned both, and they both have their merits for sure.

I think the only reason this diversion started was due to me picking up on your comment that you bought a 961 for ‘modern reliability’ over a classic bike.

As much as we love the 961, and as many merits as it has, I’d be surprised if many genuinely thought it qualified as having ‘modern reliability’.

Conversely, a well sorted original Commando is about as useable, practical and reliable as classic Brit bikes ever got. Plus the ease and cost of ownership today is about as good as it gets (ref Glens post).

So I never intended to start an old vs new debate, personally I think that’s pointless. But the ‘modern reliability’ point just seemed rather ironic to me given my points above.

As to whether or not this changes under TVS stewardship remains to be seen, but of course we all hope so.

Das ist alas.
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
Sounds like a hell of a bike Glen - a keeper no doubt and I would love a black/gold 850 as a twin to the 961 - if I could find space and a safe route past er-indoors! I’m the wrong guy to debate this comparison though; we rather need someone who’s owned both. I’ll give a starter though, just for shitz’n’giggles!

Not sure whether it’s even appropriate to compare (961 to original) given the different era and the obvious advancements in suspension, braking and overall performance. Remembering that we’re talking about the Birmingham Norton here, although there would be very little to distinguish that from a sorted Donington bike.

Appearance

Way to subjective, but to most 961 owners this would be the No.1 reason for purchase, along with marque loyalty. Bitchin‘ good looks to most, except vintage owners I suspect 😄. The very first thing that drags people over for a look wherever ya go, along with the badge. You boys snigger at the tank - I think it’s the most striking, Norton appropriate element.

Performance:

Engine: Hardly the 961’s strongest point but with a larger capacity/HP/torque output, more modern machine its unlikely to be matched in acceleration, mid range or top end by a vintage Commando.

Handling: Sweet handling hand built frame, Ohlins and access to performance rubber would see the 961 on top would be my guess.

Braking: No comparison - the 961 Brembo stoppers are awesome - ABS is gonna help with difficult situations.

Reliability:

Norton say that they’ve sorted the 961’s technical problems and all indications are that is the case. Only time and long term testing will tell for sure. My opinion is that Birmingham Norton has way too much to lose to have shortcut the re-engineering process.

Spares:

Full spares availability for the 961, but certain promise to be very expensive. Long term success of the company is not assured to guarantee future access. Few aftermarket spares available.

Maintenance:

Not difficult to work on although fuel injection and electronics add complexity. Maintenance network will be limited in the UK until Norton fully establish. God bless Motorvated and all who visit her.

Vibration and feedback:

Yes please - plenty! I wanna know I’m riding a big parallel twin bike and not an appliance.

Re-sale value:

This one goes to the original commando, certainly in Aus. A good quality example 25-35K, maybe higher. New 961 is too virgin to have any resale stats. Will it be a classic one day?

Just a bit of fun - add too, expand or ignore😉

Steve.
Click to expand...
You might be pleasantly surprised at the performance of an original Commando. They don't rev as high as your 961 but put out plenty of power in a wide band from 3000 to about 6000 rpm. They are a lighter bike than your 961 so that helps with acceleration.
Many of the period road tests made actual timed quarter mile runs with them, not just overly optimistic calculated numbers like most of today's reviewers provide.
They ran as quick as 12.69 for one 750 , however most 750s ran in the low 13s. The early 850s ran in the high 12s. The late 850s were fitted with restrictive silencers that have mostly been replaced with the earlier open type.

A quarter mile in the 12s is not hanging about, even by today's standards!

Braking , yes it wasn't great. I fitted an aftermarket front brake to mine and now I can hoon the bike thru the mountains just as hard as I do with the Sportbike or the Thruxton R. The cost of the brake was just $650, not an expensive item.

Glen
 
This might give you an idea of the available performance. We ran the bikes up to 110 mph.
The front bike is a 750 with a Comstock head with D exhaust ports, raised compression and lumpy cam.
The rear bike is my 850, engine all stock but open silencers fitted.
I think they sound great and go quite nicely.

 
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