2S, 3S, 4S Cam Ramps - design philosophy. Read this if you have one!

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From many posts on the 2S & 4S I realise that few owners understand the unusual (polydyne) ramp that Norton chose for their Commando performance cams. This post is an attempt to explain it and why it can be bad to use incorrect clearances.

On a high performance engine there is a need to get a greater mass of air/fuel mixture into the engine, and/or the same amount at higher revs. On an naturally aspirated engine this is partly achieved be increasing the angle/area over which the valves are open. To do this efficiently the valves need to be opened and closed more rapidly, which means increasing valve acceleration. With a conventional ramp there is a clearance that needs to be closed up before the valve can begin opening. Upon closing of the gap the follower/push rod/rocker/valve instantaneously have to match the velocity and acceleration of the cam. This causes noise, high loads and compression of the valve train, all of which are undesirable and have to be allowed for in the design. When the valve closes, the valve is still at a significant velocity at high rpm and it hits the valve seat hard and bouncing is a possibility.

The polydyne ramp is designed to allow for a rapid opening and closing of the valves without any of the sudden impacts that result from the conventional ramps. I have created a graph superimposing the inlet cam lift (green, DisIn, units inch) cam velocity (black, VelIn, units inch/crankshaft radian) and cam acceleration (red, AccIn, units inch/crankshaft radian squared). Don't worry if you don't understand the velocity and acceleration units which I have used, it is not important for understanding this post, I include it only for those readers who studied the sciences and may like to calculate the actual values at any rpm.
The graph shows that at the point the .016" clearance is taken up by the opening ramp the cam velocity and acceleration are both zero, therefore there is NO sudden impact. On the closing curve, as the .016" clearance point is reached and the valve closes, again both the velocity and acceleration have reduced to zero at that point, therefore no sudden impact and there is no possibility of the valve bouncing of the seat.

Now to consider what happens if the wrong clearances are used.

Clearance too small - The valve will begin opening too early and close too late but any performance drop probably won't be noticed with a small error. I can't imagine any harm being done to the inlet but, on the exhaust side the valve will be held slightly open for a relatively long time and that could lead to erosion/burning of the valve/seat as high pressure exhaust gas squeezes through the small gap.

Clearance too large - Due to the high acceleration from the cam above .016" the benefits of the poydyne ramp will be lost and when the clearance is taken up there will be a high impact velocity and sudden acceleration. On closing the valve will hammer onto the seat as with the conventional ramp. Both undesirable.

WARNING - If you use these cams in an engine with aluminium alloy barrels and/or pushrods made from materials other than aluminium alloy you must allow for the different thermal expansion rates of those components when setting the clearances.



 
In the 1960s Ed Iskenderian was into polydyne cams. From his book, they looked good. My 1958 Triumph Thunderbird 650 had ramp cams. It had excellent performance - as good as, or better than with E3134 race cams. The Triumph motors which had the wheel stamped next to the engine number had ramp cams. The tappet settings had more clearance. I think normal cams had 2 and 4 thou - the ramp cams had 20 thou.

 
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Not sure why you are saying .016” tappet clearance is optimal. The spec from Norton for a combat 2S at .008” intake, .010” exhaust is incorrect?
 
I have a 1974 850 Norton. I believe I had a upgraded cam installed. Megacycle .350 lift with 280 duration .
What would the valve clearances be?
 
2S, 3S, 4S Cam Ramps - design philosophy. Read this if you have one!
 
I suggest that within reason, it does not matter what cam you have, you need to learn to work with it. Radical timings often raise the power band, and Commandos should probably not be revved above 7000 RPM. What you need with that motor is a bike that can be ridden flat-out from just inside and around every corner. So smooth and strong power delivery is essential, and the exhaust system and cam timings affect that. When you come out of corners much faster, anybody who is slower in the corners needs a much faster motor to catch you before the next corner. If they get there before you, ride under them - NEVER OVER ! Some of the guys I have raced against, have over-cooked it in corners. Their bikes really fly. When they really get mobile, it can be disheartening. Racing should always be fun. Never have a victim's mindset.
 
From many posts on the 2S & 4S I realise that few owners understand the unusual (polydyne) ramp that Norton chose for their Commando performance cams. This post is an attempt to explain it and why it can be bad to use incorrect clearances.

On a high performance engine there is a need to get a greater mass of air/fuel mixture into the engine, and/or the same amount at higher revs. On an naturally aspirated engine this is partly achieved be increasing the angle/area over which the valves are open. To do this efficiently the valves need to be opened and closed more rapidly, which means increasing valve acceleration. With a conventional ramp there is a clearance that needs to be closed up before the valve can begin opening. Upon closing of the gap the follower/push rod/rocker/valve instantaneously have to match the velocity and acceleration of the cam. This causes noise, high loads and compression of the valve train, all of which are undesirable and have to be allowed for in the design. When the valve closes, the valve is still at a significant velocity at high rpm and it hits the valve seat hard and bouncing is a possibility.

The polydyne ramp is designed to allow for a rapid opening and closing of the valves without any of the sudden impacts that result from the conventional ramps. I have created a graph superimposing the inlet cam lift (green, DisIn, units inch) cam velocity (black, VelIn, units inch/crankshaft radian) and cam acceleration (red, AccIn, units inch/crankshaft radian squared). Don't worry if you don't understand the velocity and acceleration units which I have used, it is not important for understanding this post, I include it only for those readers who studied the sciences and may like to calculate the actual values at any rpm.
The graph shows that at the point the .016" clearance is taken up by the opening ramp the cam velocity and acceleration are both zero, therefore there is NO sudden impact. On the closing curve, as the .016" clearance point is reached and the valve closes, again both the velocity and acceleration have reduced to zero at that point, therefore no sudden impact and there is no possibility of the valve bouncing of the seat.

Now to consider what happens if the wrong clearances are used.

Clearance too small - The valve will begin opening too early and close too late but any performance drop probably won't be noticed with a small error. I can't imagine any harm being done to the inlet but, on the exhaust side the valve will be held slightly open for a relatively long time and that could lead to erosion/burning of the valve/seat as high pressure exhaust gas squeezes through the small gap.

Clearance too large - Due to the high acceleration from the cam above .016" the benefits of the poydyne ramp will be lost and when the clearance is taken up there will be a high impact velocity and sudden acceleration. On closing the valve will hammer onto the seat as with the conventional ramp. Both undesirable.

WARNING - If you use these cams in an engine with aluminium alloy barrels and/or pushrods made from materials other than aluminium alloy you must allow for the different thermal expansion rates of those components when setting the clearances.



I have an S4 in an iron barrel 850, should I be using Steel pushrods? 16 thou ? Thanks
 
I have an S4 in an iron barrel 850, should I be using Steel pushrods? 16 thou ? Thanks
IMO no. If you want certainty, use alloy pushrods.

16 thou is intended for iron barrels and alloy pushrods. Obviously in this situation, the pushrods expand more than the barrel and therefore close up some of that gap when hot. This is the designed set up.

When you start changing things, it gets complicated…

For example, when using a Maney race cam (very similar to a 4S) along with alloy barrels and alloy pushrods, Steve Maney says zero cold clearance.

When using alloy barrels with steel pushrods he says half the ‘standard’ clearance, ie 8 thou.

If you run too much clearance, you’ll have a rattly motor and perhaps lose some performance.

If you run clearances too tight for the ramps, you’ll wear out the cam and increase stresses on the valve train.
 
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A lot probably depends on how hot your motor gets. With some race bikes, heat build-up is a problem, and probably with many road bikes. I only ever race using methanol fuel. I do not usually rev the motor high until it is warm. I use 2 and 4 thou clearances with aluminium pushrods iron barrel and almost standard cam.
 
IMO no. If you want certainty, use alloy pushrods.

16 thou is intended for iron barrels and alloy pushrods. Obviously in this situation, the pushrods expand more than the barrel and therefore close up some of that gap when hot. This is the designed set up.

When you start changing things, it gets complicated…

For example, when using a Maney race cam (very similar to a 4S) along with alloy barrels and alloy pushrods, Steve Maney says zero cold clearance.

When using alloy barrels with steel pushrods he says half the ‘standard’ clearance, ie 8 thou.

If you run too much clearance, you’ll have a rattly motor and perhaps lose some performance.

If you run clearances too tight for the ramps, you’ll wear out the cam and increase stresses on the valve train.
Thank you F E.
 
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