New Member w/Gardengate Nortons

Interesting indeed. Look forward to seeing/hearing more of it.

Interestinger and interestinger...

grandpaul said:

Interestinger and interestinger...

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NO DOUBT!!

beng said:

Also you have told us more than once about the restored Daytona bikes missing the paint on their crankcases, why don't you finally get hold of the actual owners of those bikes and see if they care?

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If folks are going to restore a Francis Beart Norton, potentially a Daytona race winner and therefore of some historical value, and then obliterate (!!) all traces of Francis Beart , then it may as well be any old manx norton they plucked off ebay somewhere....
e.g.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/ ... ~60_57.JPG

This is a very nice bike, but any extra cache it has as a Daytona bike, ( and $$$ ?), is not there...

beng said:

You have also stated before that magnesium crankcases are prone to crack, don't know why anyone would say that when Norton racers somehow won thousands of races over thousands of miles with them.

No matter what metal a racing engine is made of , it is going to be more prone to crack, simply because it is being raced(common sense, try some).

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I have been to at least 3 historic races where manxes have cracked their crankcases across the timing side main bearing - this is a well known manx foible. Some of the replica cases around have been strengthened in this area, to try to prevent this.

It has also been commented that elektron as an alloy (ie magnesium) was considered obsolete in the 1930s - some of the replica cases around are in more modern varieties. And aircraft parts in magnesium are rountinely crack tested, thats why planes can safely continue to fly. Aircraft welders have commented that old magnesium parts are actually stronger once they have been welded - but don't grind off the (strengthening) fillets. !

Lurkingclass said:

yet unrestored Francis Beart Daytona bike. DOHC magnesium motor (no cracks), magnesium hubs (front has delete plate where the scoop would go), 19"/21" alloy rims, big alloy plate on rear fender to keep sand out of carb, alloy gas tank, oil tank, and fork dampers, and kickstart close ratio gearbox. Supposedly, bike was parked after the 1950 Daytona 200, and has been stored ever since. I had no idea what it was when I bought it, but I'm hearing it's a very special bike. Not quite ready to unveil the rest of it yet.

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How do you know it has no cracks - you haven't crack tested or x-rayed the magnesium bits yet ?! Low use might be good for it, though. And Bens bike...

Aircraft parts in mg are routinely crack tested, even modern alloys - thats (partly) why planes can safely fly.
There is a thread on the NOC Forum at the moment where someone has found a (visible even) crack in their cambox - surprise surprise....

I've seen a front hub 'explode' as it was being laced up - as the proprietor said 'better here than on the track'. Crack testing using UV dye is simple and easy. And probably important if you intend riding racing it ?

beng said:

You have also stated before that magnesium crankcases are prone to crack, don't know why anyone would say that when Norton racers somehow won thousands of races over thousands of miles with them.

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The Norton Factory manxes were rebuilt after every major race.
So would have been many privateers bikes ??
(In the 1970s, Factory Trident racers had their cranks changed every 3 races.)

Are you saying that you KNOW that the factory didn't replace bits as needed, to get that reliability ??

P.S. Its been said that the factory used titanium rods, for reliability. The Vanwall certainly did - this was Leo Kusmicki's design, after all .And has been hinted that Francis Beart did this as well, which is why he didn't let folks look inside them - may have been short stroke motors though. Somewhere, it is mentioned that Ken Kavanagh commented that he could break rods 'using regulation rpm', so this may be a hint from before this practice started ?

I like the ES2 much more with a girder fork- too bad it's Ariel Sq4, and not a Norton fork. If I can find an oil pump and a 'C2/134 Engine Mainshaft pump driving worm' I would like to try to get his thing back in action, as it's much more complete than the Inter or Manx, and might be alittle more forgiving to the novice Norton enthusiast. I put a '49 Triumph TR5 tank on it for now, but I have a 1930's Model 18 gas tank and an early ES2 oil tank with a different filler neck that I'd like to fit eventually.

I should probably get up to date on my tetanus shots first.

I've seen Ariels running around with Norton forks. Unless you look, its not obvious either...

Norton oil pumps and worms appear on UK ebay all the time - just note that they are a mirror image of the twins oil pumps !
With all your Nortons, should have enough to get something rolling and rideable - especially if you keep them 'as is', although Murricans don't seem to like anything that is not brand new looking... ?

P.S. Don't tell this to the cammy riders, but ES2's don't have the deliberate oil leak (to the valve guides), so have a much better chance of arriving without your knees soaked in oil....

Rohan- thank for the good info. Shiny? Sometimes. I've built shiny bikes, but I prefer a bike that can be enjoyed without a feather duster and a chamois. Here's a pic a '53 BB34 with a Norton girder (dammit- shoulda kept it!!!) that I put together, won a few trophies with in the current shape, then sold to someone who offered me way too much money for it. Also, for contrast, here's a pic of the last unit Triumph I built along with a 1955 Tiger 110 that was bobbed back in the 50's.

Nice posts Lurkingclass, thx for the photos. I'll be following your thread with great interest. Cj

I see you are also after an Amal 1 5/32" 10TT9 carb with 15 degree floatbowl which might be very difficult to find and will cost a lot of money if you find one.
A Lucas magdyno are reasonably easy to obtain secondhand in theUK-- look on e bay.

Thanks Bernhard. Are you aware of a functional alternative for the 10TT9? Unfortunately, the 1 5/32 10TT9 I had went with my BSA when I sold it. I've got a pair of 1 1/8" Amal 289 carbs as well as 389/Monoblocs up to 1 3/16". I might give one of those carbs a try.

Any idea how the new Amal TT carbs work? They're pricey, but if they work well, I may take the plunge. http://www.amalcarb.co.uk/buildCarb_TT.aspx

Also considering a new BTH magdyno- any input? http://bt-h.biz/mag-dyno.htm

Rohan said:

The Norton Factory manxes were rebuilt after every major race. So would have been many privateers bikes ?? (In the 1970s, Factory Trident racers had their cranks changed every 3 races.)
Are you saying that you KNOW that the factory didn't replace bits as needed, to get that reliability ??
P.S. Its been said that after all .And has been hinted that - may have been . Somewhere, it is mentioned that Ken Kavanagh commented that , so this may be a hint ?

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Uh, what does a Triumph Trident motor have to do with Norton Manx engines? Your "P.S." comment is going to be the acknowledgement for your new book on Norton right?

How about actually picking up a book like Mick Walker's on the Manx Norton? If you did then you could credit it with the following written about the Manx by Ken Kavanagh, A FACTORY RIDER:

"Maintenance was almost nil; check the tappet clearance, adjust the chains, blow up the tyres. A whole European season could be done with three sets of valve springs, two spare valves, some spare rings and one big-end - maybe no more than fifty quid - and it could be overhauled in anybody's backyard with a few spanners."

Manx crankcases would crack across the drive side main bearing, and between the timing side main bearing and oil pump cavity, but only if stress from some other part breaking, a dropped valve for instance, put an unusual load or force on them. Otherwise they were no more prone to cracking that any other British bike engine, mag or aluminum used in racing, and if well maintained and cared for will last for decades of racing.
The Canadian importer for Nortons, McGill, who was involved in racing Nortons from WWII onwards into the vintage scene, said the long-stroke Manx engines were as reliable and needed as little maintenance during a season as a Briggs and Stratton lawn-mower.
90+ year old Bob McKeever, who raced a Manx on the beach at Daytona and who with his son is still involved in racing them , has a rider currently running and winning races on a cammy Norton with original pre-WWII magnesium crankcases.

So if you have an old Manx and you have it correctly put together and run it sanely, there is nothing you have to worry about.

Rohan, as usual you do a disservice to the history of Norton motorcycles and the Norton community in general with your hearsay , unfounded illogical conclusions and assumptions.....

beng said:

Rohan, as usual you do a disservice to the history of Norton motorcycles and the Norton community in general with your hearsay , unfounded illogical conclusions and assumptions.....

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Ben, You must have a strong pair of rose tinted glasses !! I've seen an x-ray of a magnesium brake plate, and seen a front hub explode while being laced - anyone that rides on junk like that without having it crack tested ain't sane. How this is a 'dis-service' in your mind is anyones guess...

Ben, like all race bikes, manxes were famous for the number of ways they could 'fail to proceed' in a race - someone wrote a list back in the 1970s, I'll see if I could find it. Top of the list were cracked fuel and oil tanks ? Followed by any number of mechanical failures. If Bob McGeever raced all those years without EVER having a mechanical failure, that would be quite remarkable. Quite remarkable indeed....

I've just had some frame cracks welded up in a Norton plunger frame (not manx) - this is the 4th of 5 plunger frames I've had that was cracked or broken. I know not the history of these, except that the best one has seen almost no use. You may recall the discussion where Ken Sprayson offered a frame welding service at race meets in the UK - and plenty required his services. What does that say about frame breakages back then ??

You have obviously not been in the garages of racing folk, and observed all the old bits hanging on the wall !! Some years ago I was given a small collection of someones 'offering to the gods of speed' (to use Burt Munros phrase) - broken manx bits - from someone who rebuilt them for folks. I'll post some pics. And reply to some other points, gotta go.

Just scored a few Norton parts off ebay. I'm hoping the tank will fit the ES2- it's supposed to be a Model 18 tank, but what's the deal with the left side filler? Then there's these folding footpegs. I'm not positive they'll fit a gardengate Norton, but they look like they might. Any ideas?

Yes, back to the thread at hand.

Those folding footpegs are an interesting and useful idea - but falling onto solid footpegs can prevent other damage (if you intend falling off !!). The only way to see if they will fit is to try them - Nortons seem to have made dozens of footpeg bits, every model seems to be different.
The bit to take note of is how long the arms are, and where that will put the pegs in relation to the gearlever and brake lever - and if the brakelever side will foul the clutch housing. The gearlever side footpeg will need spacing out from the frame, there is a spacer that is 2" to 3" long to do this. Nice splines on those.....

Tank looks right for an ohv, but that filler on that side is unusual. Prevents you over filling the tank, and then putting it on the sidestand and the fuel leaking out. Crusty looking tank, nothing that a bit of work won't fix. Measure the tank mounting bolts distance apart, and compare to your frame, make sure they are similar enough to fit. Hopethishelps.

Rohan- I should have mentioned that I'd like to run the pegs on the rear set lugs. I'm not dead set on them though, so I'll try them out and see how they work. I was just curious what they originally came off of. I take it the original rear set pegs/Manx style pegs would have been longer? Anyone got a picture of Gardengate manx footpegs or better yet, Daytona Manx footpegs?

Rohan said:

You have obviously not been in the garages of racing folk

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You have obviously changed the subject when you get in trouble, are you a politician?

beng said:

Rohan said:

You have obviously not been in the garages of racing folk

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You have obviously changed the subject when you get in trouble, are you a politician?

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Dude- seriously? I know I'm the new guy here, but lets stick to the bikes. After seeing how the other Daytona Manx thread went, I was hesitant to post here, but there seems to be some very knowledgable folks here, so I guess I'll have to figure out how to filter certain posts.

Does this site have a moderator to clean up threads that get off track?