New Member w/Gardengate Nortons

Hi all. I just joined the forum a few days ago, and I'm not sure if an intro is in order here, as on other M/C forums, but here goes. I've been a Triumph guy for a while now, and while my pre-units keep me happy most of the time, I've always been set on a Norton single- preferably something with a girder fork and a magnesium motor, but I came to peace with the idea that I would not be able to afford an early manx or International and would probably settle for a ES2 basket case and an off-brand girder to build my own.

Then I get a call from a guy asking if I want to come see some Nortons. As it turns out, I ended up bringing home a 1952 International, a 1951 ES2, and another old Norton that I'll talk about later. The bikes are somewhat weathered, but matching numbers with nice, complete motors and gearboxes. At this point, I'm searching for leads on where to find some of the missing components of the International (magdyno w/drive, footpegs, 8" front brake plate, rear brake lever, gearshift lever, fenders, primary drive and covers, etc) as well as any good info on these bikes- These are my first Nortons, so this is all new to me. I might let the ES2 go since I bought it for parts, then after realizing it's got matching numbers, decided against robbing parts off of it. I would be happy to swap it for International parts. Any tips/advice/info that any of you Norton Single experts can share? Anyone know of a reputable shop in So Calif that can build an Inter. motor? Thanks!

Nice score! That's the way to buy these relics... 3 at a time!
Welcome to the forum!

Why does this never happen to me?

Nice grabs!

SCORE!!!

Thanks a bunch guys- I'm super excited about these Norton singles, and can't wait to get the International back on the road. I've got quite a bit of work ahead of me, but I'm compiling info and parts. Thanks to Jeff/Wilkey113 for the leads on Norton resources. I just joined the NOC and I'm looking forward to hooking up with the local chapter. I'll post more pics as things progress. Cheers, Pete

PS- anyone got any leads on an original Norton girder?

Norton singles/OHC specialist (UK).

http://www.norton.uk.com/

Magnesium crankcases (if they are magnesium ?) mark that as more special than an inter. Does the engine number match the frame ?

Stu Rogers Inter Spares in Cambridgeshire UK can probably supply most bits, although it can sometimes take a while. Will cost a lot to complete that, whoever you get the bits from.
Lotsa bits appear on ebay regularly, but you have to search often - and bid big. ES2 parts are very similar, but not usually exactly the same....

Nice find....

Nice to see that someone still keeping the old Nortons alive
These bikes are little before my time, so an old Norton specialist is your best bet, like the NOC.
I could be wrong, but the Manx parts were not generally used on the road going Nortons sold to the great mass of the general public, as they were racing machines, the Inters were detuned Manx engines, with a plate under the barrel to lower the compression ratio, and less lumpier cams.
Museums, along with Google Images, e.t.c. are a good scorch of information for these bikes, in the Uk we have, among others, the Sammy Miller museum,
PS I unless you are not planning to ride the Inter on the highway, I would be temped to keep that 2ls front brake, you will after all need good stoppers :!:

Norton Dominator International Front Wheel Hub Used;
Not sure if it’s featherbed or not……
e-bay.
140702310317

The 'correct' front brake for a 1952 Inter would be the 7" half-sided steel hub, with alloy brakeplate as used by the rest of the range that year. It wasn't very powerful when it came out in the 30's - as Berhard says, better to keep what you have (if it works) and reconsider when the rest of it is finished.

Most museum bikes are cobbled up collections of bits - Stu Rogers is very knowledgeable, and happy to talk, or write, if you catch him at the right time. And had a big range of spares, some time back, not sure if that continues these days or not.

That magnesium crankcase isn't Manx, or is prewar, so a bit of a strange one there....

Good info - thanks Rohan, Bernhard and everyone else offering up info. I should probably add that the cases on the Inter are not magnesium as I first suspected, but seem to be painted alloy. The cam/rocker box and squarish cover are definitely magnesium. The engine and frame numbers match and I have a 1960's California title for it. The Inter came with a 19" front wheel with an 8" steel brake that is just like the 7" on the ES2, just an inch larger. No brake plate, but I have a 1950's Triumph Tiger 8" brake plate that I can make work if necessary. No shortage of Triumphs parts here!

Lurkingclass said:

Good info - thanks Rohan, Bernhard and everyone else offering up info. I should probably add that the cases on the Inter are not magnesium as I first suspected, but seem to be painted alloy. The cam/rocker box and squarish cover are definitely magnesium. The engine and frame numbers match and I have a 1960's California title for it. The Inter came with a 19" front wheel with an 8" steel brake that is just like the 7" on the ES2, just an inch larger. No brake plate, but I have a 1950's Triumph Tiger 8" brake plate that I can make work if necessary. No shortage of Triumphs parts here!

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re; "I should probably add that the cases on the Inter are not magnesium as I first suspected, but seem to be painted alloy."

Well, there’s a quantum, the Daytona entered Norton’s of the 1950s ( which was a Beach race then) had their crankcases painted so who knows b :?:

These cases don't look like manx though.

And the Daytona bikes seem to be often referred to by their riders as "inters', so these was a whole heap of deception going on.... ?

Bernhard said:

I could be wrong, but the Manx parts were not generally used on the road going Nortons sold to the great mass of the general public, as they were racing machines, the Inters were detuned Manx engines, with a plate under the barrel to lower the compression ratio, and less lumpier cams.

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This is both mostly correct and slightly 'wrong', depending on the years we are talking about.

The manx (race bikes ) were almost a totally different engine, AND different cycle parts, to the inter road bikes by the early 1950s - name a component that they have in common. ?
And by the 1950s, the magnesium centre-feed (ie oil) cambox that the manx used in the 1940s seems to have been fitted as standard to the inters - Nortons probably had lots of them, and once the Manx went to dohc then the sohc camboxes were probably just taking up shelf space - so the road inters had them fitted, as standard ?
(The centrefeed-cambox was an optional extra in earlier years.)
(Anyone know when they started ?).

I've seen it said that the inters also all had (sohc) manx profile cams fitted, in the 1950s.
(Lotta numbers on cams about, anyone know them well ?).
Remember, Manx went dohc in late 1949, so this is when they totally diverged from the roadbikes.

Lurkingclass said:

The Inter came with a 19" front wheel with an 8" steel brake that is just like the 7" on the ES2, just an inch larger. No brake plate, but I have a 1950's Triumph Tiger 8" brake plate that I can make work if necessary. No shortage of Triumphs parts here!

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That 8" single sided steel brake came out for all Nortons for 1954. And only 1954.
Useful upgrade for the 7" version (i've acquired one, to try).
Said to be not real powerful either though.
The alloy brake plate appears now and then on ebay, although sellers don't always know what it is. That TLS brake thats in there, if fitted up so it works, could work well ? - although not period... Cheers.

Bernhard said:

Well, there’s a quantum, the Daytona entered Norton’s of the 1950s ( which was a Beach race then) had their crankcases painted so who knows b :?:

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P.S. Prewar customer bikes ALL had aluminium crankcases (unless you were a very special customer ?), and these are what Francis Beart knew well. And magnesium cases were prone to cracking - so its not inconceivable that the cases on his Daytona bikes were aluminium.

Its also noticeable that restored Daytona Beart Nortons don't have silver painted (or aluminium ?) crankcases, so this is a minor aspect where the restoration is not true to the original Daytona bikes ?

Rohan said:

Bernhard said:

Well, there’s a quantum, the Daytona entered Norton’s of the 1950s ( which was a Beach race then) had their crankcases painted so who knows b :?:

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

P.S. Prewar customer bikes ALL had aluminium crankcases (unless you were a very special customer ?), and these are what Francis Beart knew well. And magnesium cases were prone to cracking - so its not inconceivable that the cases on his Daytona bikes were aluminium.

Its also noticeable that restored Daytona Beart Nortons don't have silver painted (or aluminium ?) crankcases, so this is a minor aspect where the restoration is not true to the original Daytona bikes ?[/quoteAQa

As was stated elsewhere on this subject, the Datyona beach race rules limited the compression ratio on singles to 7:1.

Rohan said:

And magnesium cases were prone to cracking - so its not inconceivable that the cases on his Daytona bikes were aluminium.
Its also noticeable that restored Daytona Beart Nortons don't have silver painted (or aluminium ?) crankcases, so this is a minor aspect where the restoration is not true to the original Daytona bikes ?

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Still trying to develop a method to guess metal alloys by looking at photographs Rohan?

You have also stated before that magnesium crankcases are prone to crack, don't know why anyone would say that when Norton racers somehow won thousands of races over thousands of miles with them.

No matter what metal a racing engine is made of , it is going to be more prone to crack, simply because it is being raced(common sense, try some).

There are lots of Manx Nortons with their original mag cases that are free of cracks, including my friends 47' which he raced for decades and my 59' which once won a road-racing championship.

International cases are easily told from racing cases: International cases always featured the oil pump tell tale and valances to the crankcase ribs to match the enclosed chaincase, these were ommitted from the racing engines. Racing engines from 1935 had the raised front engine plate mounting which Inters never got.

Peter Roydhouse, Norton employee for many years: "The so called International to Racing specification beloved by classic bike exhibitors are a myth of their creators.". Or in layman's terms; bikes with racing crankcases were either factory racers or Manx Nortons, bikes with International cases were Internationals.

Also you have told us more than once about the restored Daytona bikes missing the paint on their crankcases, why don't you finally get hold of the actual owners of those bikes and see if they care?

You appear to be repeating exactly what I said. ?

Restored bikes that don't look what they did are ???

I'm guessig you'r in The States, Lurkingclass,
I'd take that ES2 off you today.
Many older Nortons here in Oz, but unfortunately even the filthy
rich seem to struggle to pay for parts.
Welcome aboard, great find.
AC.

AussieCombat said:

I'm guessig you'r in The States, Lurkingclass,
I'd take that ES2 off you today.
Many older Nortons here in Oz, but unfortunately even the filthy
rich seem to struggle to pay for parts.
Welcome aboard, great find.
AC.

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Hi AC- You guessed it- USA. I'm finding that parts for these old Norton are rediculously hard to find, so I'm tempted to hold onto the ES2 for now- there's been lots of interest, but I think I'm going to stuff a girder fork in it and have some fun with it for a while.

I don't know if this helps shed any light on the last few posts, as I'm no Norton expert, but here's the '3rd bike' that turned out to be a documented, yet unrestored Francis Beart Daytona bike. DOHC magnesium motor (no cracks), magnesium hubs (front has delete plate where the scoop would go), 19"/21" alloy rims, big alloy plate on rear fender to keep sand out of carb, alloy gas tank, oil tank, and fork dampers, and kickstart close ratio gearbox. Supposedly, bike was parked after the 1950 Daytona 200, and has been stored ever since. I had no idea what it was when I bought it, but I'm hearing it's a very special bike. Not quite ready to unveil the rest of it yet.