Anti-wetsump & Peace-of-mind switch
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worntorn
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Lannis said:
When I mentioned the key in valve idea to a local Norton /Vincent engine builder, he said much the same thing, in fact he tore a strip off me for coming up with such a haywire idea.
At the time he was rebuilding /restoring a Norton 99 which belongs to a good friend of mine. He showed me how he refaces the oil pump so that wet sumping is not an issue, or only an issue if the bike is left to stand for months. If a bike takes a couple of months to wet sump, (as my MK3 does) I wouldn't consider wet sumping to be worth bothering about.
Two years later I can tell you that the 99 with the oil pump he so carefully fitted likes to fill it's crankcase half full of oil in about one week. Because the bike was spraying oil all over itself when ridden, the owner fitted a catch bottle to the breather. After a three days sit the bike will fill that catch bottle in a couple of miles of riding. Once the sump is cleared the bike stops filling the catch bottle.
The owner has now fitted an easy drain plug so that he can drain and refill the bike before every ride.
Meanwhile, my bodge shown in the photo above works perfectly, zero trouble, zero wetsumping even if left all winter and I can park the bike on a white carpet for storage, there won't be a stain.
So which of those two fixes is the bodge?
Glen
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Sounds like that 99 should have the engine breather routed to the top of the oil tank and then vent the oil tank. That is how the Commandos came from the factory. Were the 99s different?
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acadian said:since the topic is lively again, I'm wondering if anyone has tried this valve from Holland norton, it's a direct replacement of the oil tank banjo. Not that I'm interested in it myself (happy with the slowed sumping delivered by the AMR mod), I'm more curious than anything else
Looks like another check ball valve.
By the way, isn't the AMR mod just another check ball valve in the timing cover? How does eventual metal chip debris affect its ability to deliver the right pressure all the time?
texasSlick
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elefantrider said:
The AMR mod is a ball check valve, but it is on the pressure side of the oil pump, not the inlet side. As gear rotor pumps do not create any appreciable suction, but do deliver high pressure, there is little possibility the AMR check valve will starve the engine of oil.
Chip debris? Where from?
The AMR check valve is in the same oil gallery as the oil pump pressure relief valve, and is the oil gallery that feeds the crank shaft thru the timing cover oil seal. Thus the oil pressure is the same everywhere in that oil gallery. The only way the AMR mod can affect oil pressure is, if in some way, the oil pump could not overcome the AMR spring pressure which keeps the ball closed. Should the oil pump reach that state of affairs, your engine is toast anyway.
Slick
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texasSlick said:
Thanks for pointing that out. Although, considering it's the second time it's been pointed out in this same thread, it may be that no one will listen. Everyone seems to be trying to do ANYTHING except fix their bike so that it works .... with switches, inlet check valves, reminders, extra hoses, running it with a sump full of oil, draining oil and dirt into a pan and pouring it back in ... anything and everything except fixing it.
Lannis
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texasSlick said:
Thanks for pointing that out. Although, considering it's the second time it's been pointed out in this same thread, it may be that no one will listen. Everyone seems to be trying to do ANYTHING except fix their bike so that it works .... with switches, inlet check valves, reminders, extra hoses, running it with a sump full of oil, draining oil and dirt into a pan and pouring it back in ... anything and everything except fixing it.
Lannis
worntorn
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Lannis said:
That's a fairly critical statement of everyone here and I disagree with you.
My wetsumpers are fixed. Wetsumping is no longer a problem so I have moved on to riding the bikes and normal maintenance. I no longer think about it or spend time on it, other than on this forum.
On the Vincent the AMR mod is not an option.
On my 650ss, it is, but the problem has already been taken care of by the valve.
The AMR mod and other work as detailed by Peterjoe and Jim is another way, certainly a good way to achieve the same thing. Not sure if it would be 100 % effective over any period of time like the valve or maybe somewhat effective like my MK3, but well worth trying, especially if the bike is already apart for other work.
Glen
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Actually, if the problem is oil on the floor when the bike wet sumps, then why not fix the root of the problem,
ie -repair the oil leaks or the breather system.
Just because it's British does not mean it has to mark it's spot......
I have never seen bearing damage because the bike was started with most of the oil in the crankcase. There is plenty of oil in the crankshaft itself to lube the bearings for a few minutes.
I have seen several cases of bearing damage due to wet-sump cures. ie -spring loaded inline valves or forgotten manual valves. Jim
ie -repair the oil leaks or the breather system.
Just because it's British does not mean it has to mark it's spot......
I have never seen bearing damage because the bike was started with most of the oil in the crankcase. There is plenty of oil in the crankshaft itself to lube the bearings for a few minutes.
I have seen several cases of bearing damage due to wet-sump cures. ie -spring loaded inline valves or forgotten manual valves. Jim
worntorn
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Jim, the problems I have had due to wet sumping are-
-Lots of smoke on startup with 650ss, can't be a good thing. This is a new engine with a 98% leakdown test, no smoke in normal operation.
-the aforementioned leakage only when the crankcase gets very full. No longer a problem.
-blown seal in the MK 3 when started with full sump. It also smokes for a minute or two if the sump gets a little full.
- the 1360 doesn't leak oil at all, but I cannot kick it over with the sump full of oil. It's tough enough with an empty sump. The oil pump on that one is brand new but it is a 2 start and they are famous for leakage. For some reason the 1 start doesn't do the same. It also smokes on startup with full sump and it is an all new engine.
I don't have any problems of this sort with either bike now that the key in valve is fitted, nor has anyone been able to explain to me (logically) how that item could cause a problem.
So I can't see why I need to tear them down?
I'm thinking about adding your reed valve to the MK 3 for the occasional time that it does wetsump.
I appreciate that there are multiple ways to deal with the same problem.
Glen
-Lots of smoke on startup with 650ss, can't be a good thing. This is a new engine with a 98% leakdown test, no smoke in normal operation.
-the aforementioned leakage only when the crankcase gets very full. No longer a problem.
-blown seal in the MK 3 when started with full sump. It also smokes for a minute or two if the sump gets a little full.
- the 1360 doesn't leak oil at all, but I cannot kick it over with the sump full of oil. It's tough enough with an empty sump. The oil pump on that one is brand new but it is a 2 start and they are famous for leakage. For some reason the 1 start doesn't do the same. It also smokes on startup with full sump and it is an all new engine.
I don't have any problems of this sort with either bike now that the key in valve is fitted, nor has anyone been able to explain to me (logically) how that item could cause a problem.
So I can't see why I need to tear them down?
I'm thinking about adding your reed valve to the MK 3 for the occasional time that it does wetsump.
I appreciate that there are multiple ways to deal with the same problem.
Glen
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worntorn said:
Glen,
I do not see any problem with your ignition key oil valve. It looks foolproof.
My mostly stock MK3 completely wet sumps between uses. I have never replaced the crank seal. [knock on wood]
I get a slight puff of smoke when starting -but it does have a sump plug breather installed.
It's a factory assembled engine and will leave a couple dime sized oil spots after setting for several months.
With multi vis oil I haven't had any problem kickstarting my fuel injected bike when the cases are full. Now it's a different story with straight 50 oil. It leaves no oil spots after setting.
If your 650 smokes heavily on starting then I would have to think the oil rings are not doing a good job. That would be expected with 1 piece oil rings... It would be a good candidate for a sump plug breather. Jim
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I saidworntorn said:
"Although, considering it's the second time it's been pointed out in this same thread, it may be that no one will listen. Everyone seems to be trying to do ANYTHING except fix their bike so that it works .... with switches, inlet check valves, reminders, extra hoses, running it with a sump full of oil, draining oil and dirt into a pan and pouring it back in ... anything and everything except fixing it.
Lannis"
The statement is critical NOT of everyone here, but only of those folks who implement "patches" that have downsides like oil line blockage, running wet-sumped, getting dirt in the oil, or risking starting the bike with no oil flow, when the problem can be fixed without those downsides.
Otherwise, I'm not being critical. So it's not "everyone".
And disagreement is part of the deal in ANY discussion.
Lannis
worntorn
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[quote="comnoz"
If your 650 smokes heavily on starting then I would have to think the oil rings are not doing a good job. That would be expected with 1 piece oil rings... It would be a good candidate for a sump plug breather. Jim[/quote]
I'm guessing it would also help my friend's 99, if it's the same plug for all? He's not keen on the key/valve.
I've put the key/valve in the 650, so the smoking on startup is a thing of the past.
Glen
If your 650 smokes heavily on starting then I would have to think the oil rings are not doing a good job. That would be expected with 1 piece oil rings... It would be a good candidate for a sump plug breather. Jim[/quote]
I'm guessing it would also help my friend's 99, if it's the same plug for all? He's not keen on the key/valve.
I've put the key/valve in the 650, so the smoking on startup is a thing of the past.
Glen
Maybe not Hobot since his bike is not together at present ( or is it?)
Fast Eddie
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There's more than one way to skin a cat guys! And we all have our own preferences.
Personally, I found that a new AN pump reduced wet sumping quite a lot. even after a few weeks of sitting, the Comnoz reed valve breather quickly returns excess sump oil to the tank and protects the seals from blowing (so far at least). And until it does so, that excess oil has been of benefit to cams and followers, etc as Comnoz has already said.
It has to be parked up for in excess of 6 weeks before the tank level drops to expose the gauze filter, and that only happens over winter, when I've usually got some part of it in bits and an oil change is an automatic part of my 'PM Schedule'.
Personally, I found that a new AN pump reduced wet sumping quite a lot. even after a few weeks of sitting, the Comnoz reed valve breather quickly returns excess sump oil to the tank and protects the seals from blowing (so far at least). And until it does so, that excess oil has been of benefit to cams and followers, etc as Comnoz has already said.
It has to be parked up for in excess of 6 weeks before the tank level drops to expose the gauze filter, and that only happens over winter, when I've usually got some part of it in bits and an oil change is an automatic part of my 'PM Schedule'.
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Send that timing cover and oil pump to AMR. No more wet sumping, no more blown engines caused by inline check valves, no more unsightly gimmicky switches, wires, zip ties, etc.
Those of you who state the AMR mod does not stop wet sumping, did you have AMR modify the oil pump, too? If not, the stock pump will leak into the timing chest.
Those of you who state the AMR mod does not stop wet sumping, did you have AMR modify the oil pump, too? If not, the stock pump will leak into the timing chest.
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