Anti-wetsump & Peace-of-mind switch

Lannis said:

ashman said:

If you ride your Norton regularly then you shouldn't have any problems with wet sumping, for 37 years I never had a problem only now that I don't ride it as much these days as my Thruxton is my every day ride now, but when I plan on taking a ride on my Norton I check the oil the night before as well tyres etc and if the tank is down I just drain the sump, only take a few seconds to remove the sump plug, its no big deal.

Ashley

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If you have 6 different bikes you ride for 20,000 miles a year, it could STILL be months between rides on the Norton, and the opportunity for wet-sumping.

It's not a "big deal", true, to drain the oil from the sump, but I have to either

1) lie down on the concrete floor and crawl around OR

2) Take down whatever other bike is on the lift so I can roll the Norton up

3) Scrupulously clean around the drain plug

4) Scrupulously clean a container

5) Drain the oil into the container and pour it back into the tank

6) Take the Norton back down off of the lift and put the other bike back.

And even then, you're risking getting dirt in the oil, or have to throw away $8 worth of oil.

Or ride it wet-sumped and hope it's OK.

For gosh sakes, why not just fix the problem and don't have to worry about wet-sumping at ALL? If people would spend a few hours and the price of a steak dinner for two these days, and FIX THE BIKE, there wouldn't be an issue.

Maybe it's more fun to talk about it than fix it, though. That's allowed under British Bike Rules, I suppose ....

Lannis

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If you mean fix the bike with the AMR mod, it only works about 50% of the time. With the other 50%, the wet sumping continues merrily on. Matt Rambo of cNW reported these results from a number of bikes fitted with the AMR mod.
So the AMR mod is worth trying, but don't count on it necessarily working.

Glen

If you have 6 different bikes you ride for 20,000 miles a year, it could STILL be months between rides on the Norton, and the opportunity for wet-sumping.

It's not a "big deal", true, to drain the oil from the sump, but I have to either

1) lie down on the concrete floor and crawl around OR

2) Take down whatever other bike is on the lift so I can roll the Norton up

3) Scrupulously clean around the drain plug

4) Scrupulously clean a container

5) Drain the oil into the container and pour it back into the tank

6) Take the Norton back down off of the lift and put the other bike back.

And even then, you're risking getting dirt in the oil, or have to throw away $8 worth of oil.

Or ride it wet-sumped and hope it's OK.

For gosh sakes, why not just fix the problem and don't have to worry about wet-sumping at ALL? If people would spend a few hours and the price of a steak dinner for two these days, and FIX THE BIKE, there wouldn't be an issue.

Maybe it's more fun to talk about it than fix it, though. That's allowed under British Bike Rules, I suppose ....

Lannis[/quote

So you let your bike sit for a few months then you just hop on it and go for a ride, most poeple will go over their bike before riding, like check oil, tyres and air pressure, fuel etc etc, takes about 10 seconds to remove a drain plug, so the oil can drain while checking everything else, my Norton has to sit for over 3 or 4 months before it starts to leak down to the sump.

Ashley

ashman said:

So you let your bike sit for a few months then you just hop on it and go for a ride, most poeple will go over their bike before riding, like check oil, tyres and air pressure, fuel etc etc, takes about 10 seconds to remove a drain plug, so the oil can drain while checking everything else, my Norton has to sit for over 3 or 4 months before it starts to leak down to the sump.

Ashley

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10 seconds, eh? So (since you think I'm stupid enough to just hop on the bike and go after 3 months), I'm to assume that you just twiddle the screw out and drain the oil onto the floor?

To get a wrench, get down under the bike, get a container, drain out the oil, throw the oil away, get out a couple more quarts at $4 per, screw the drain plug back in, fill the tank back up .... this is done in 10 seconds at your house?

I know that's not true ... why do you say it is, just so you can win some sort of "argument" and be "right"?

Do it your way, though. If your oil doesn't "start" to drain into the sump for 3 or 4 months, you haven't got a wet-sumping issue to solve with your bike anyhow ....

Lannis

Lannis said:

ashman said:

So you let your bike sit for a few months then you just hop on it and go for a ride, most poeple will go over their bike before riding, like check oil, tyres and air pressure, fuel etc etc, takes about 10 seconds to remove a drain plug, so the oil can drain while checking everything else, my Norton has to sit for over 3 or 4 months before it starts to leak down to the sump.

Ashley

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10 seconds, eh? So (since you think I'm stupid enough to just hop on the bike and go after 3 months), I'm to assume that you just twiddle the screw out and drain the oil onto the floor?

To get a wrench, get down under the bike, get a container, drain out the oil, throw the oil away, get out a couple more quarts at $4 per, screw the drain plug back in, fill the tank back up .... this is done in 10 seconds at your house?

I know that's not true ... why do you say it is, just so you can win some sort of "argument" and be "right"?

Do it your way, though. If your oil doesn't "start" to drain into the sump for 3 or 4 months, you haven't got a wet-sumping issue to solve with your bike anyhow ....

Lannis

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I agree that having to drain the oil and refill is a pain. No matter how I do it, there is always some mess. It also takes quite awhile. If it's just a short ride, I would just take the modern bike or the one with a clear sump ( generally the MK 3).

There is that plug in a plug available at AN and other places. Apparently it makes the chore easier.

The bigger annoyance is the amount of oil that my wetsumpers leak when the sump fills. It has me slip sliding around to the point that I've gone right down on the concrete floor after moving a bike then forgetting about the oil puddle.
The same bike leaves the floor bone dry when the sump has the proper amount of oil in it.
This same bike smokes like it's on fire if started with a full sump. I don't think the rings are worn as it only has 4,000 miles since the major rebuild and tests 98% on leakdown at 75 psi.
Last year I put a ball valve in the supply line. The only ignition key closes it and then the key won't come out until the valve is opened.
You don't even notice the valve visually and now I ride the bike a lot more because the sump isn't loaded up. It's also nice that the floor and the engine are clean.
I can't imagine that cokeing up the head by running with full sump and chimney-fire exhaust is a good thing for the engine.
So this solution worked for me.
Others will get quite angry about the idea of someone placing a valve in the feed line. It's almost comical, like you are going to blow their bike up by putting this valve in your bike!
There is also a tendency to lump the spring and ball automatic valves in with the manual valves and the straight manual valves with those that have some kind of safety feature.
The ball and spring idea on the feed line is not something I would ever try. Nor would I fit a manual valve and expect to always remember to turn it on. My brain doesn't work that well.

Don't need to remember , this setup won't let me start the bike until the oil is on.

Glen

I'd say the valve/switch combo looks pretty cool. I like how well the 2 parts nestle against each other. But the wiring could introduce another point of failure (as wiring tends to do).
Having said that I'll say that I'm also in the "let it wet-sump" camp. Never really been a big deal. Start it up and let it idle gently for a minute or 2.

But... My concern with a ball valve in that location is the possibility of the oil in the line below the valve draining into the sump (as it normally does) leaving a 6 inch air gap at the feed side of the pump which might be slow to be eliminated by gravity and/or the pump. I can envision flipping the valve on, then starting the bike and having it suck air for a few moments before the air is eliminated. Perhaps the oil cannot drain down due to the vacuum since the line is sealed at the valve, but air could always work it's way up from the pump displacing the oil over an extended period of time. Probably not an issue though.

Lannis said:

ashman said:

So you let your bike sit for a few months then you just hop on it and go for a ride, most poeple will go over their bike before riding, like check oil, tyres and air pressure, fuel etc etc, takes about 10 seconds to remove a drain plug, so the oil can drain while checking everything else, my Norton has to sit for over 3 or 4 months before it starts to leak down to the sump.

Ashley

Click to expand...

10 seconds, eh? So (since you think I'm stupid enough to just hop on the bike and go after 3 months), I'm to assume that you just twiddle the screw out and drain the oil onto the floor?

To get a wrench, get down under the bike, get a container, drain out the oil, throw the oil away, get out a couple more quarts at $4 per, screw the drain plug back in, fill the tank back up .... this is done in 10 seconds at your house?

I know that's not true ... why do you say it is, just so you can win some sort of "argument" and be "right"?

Do it your way, though. If your oil doesn't "start" to drain into the sump for 3 or 4 months, you haven't got a wet-sumping issue to solve with your bike anyhow ....

Lannis

Click to expand...

What I said it takes 10 seconds to unsrew the drain plug which it does, I didn't mention anything else, but in my workshop all my tools hang close by and the same with clean containers, so I could proberly have a ring spanner in one hand and a clean container in the other, so I am not make any arguement at all, all I am saying its no big deal to do and having a clean container the oil goes back into the tank, no mess to clean up except for the container, the time it takes the oil to drain out is nomaly the time it takes my compressor to get up to pressure to check the tyres, don't know why some make such a big deal.
My mate sent his case away for that mod waiting a few weeks for its return and it didn't make much diffrents, yes it slowed it down but it still wet sumped if he let it sit which he did as he is a mercant seaman.

Ashley

ashman said:

If you ride your Norton regularly then you shouldn't have any problems with wet sumping, for 37 years I never had a problem only now that I don't ride it as much these days as my Thruxton is my every day ride now, but when I plan on taking a ride on my Norton I check the oil the night before as well tyres etc and if the tank is down I just drain the sump, only take a few seconds to remove the sump plug, its no big deal.

Ashley

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I have let mine get to the 1 qt line and started it with no issues. Cringing as I kicked it. Today I went out and the stick showed no oil.
Cut down a milk jug an drained the sump. It goes right back in the tank. No big deal.

I'm pretty much with worntorn with this. I have a ball valve in the intake and I used a micro-switch until it broke. I wasn't impressed with the extra wiring either. I like worntorn's idea, but I need to incorporate it into my situation. At the moment I ride so little it's not an issue, but it does keep the oil out of the sump, and I too get much less leakage on the floor without the sump full. But notice I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about this. To each his/her own.

Glenn, do you have a link to a good picture of your setup?

since the topic is lively again, I'm wondering if anyone has tried this valve from Holland norton, it's a direct replacement of the oil tank banjo. Not that I'm interested in it myself (happy with the slowed sumping delivered by the AMR mod), I'm more curious than anything else

DogT said:

I'm pretty much with worntorn with this. I have a ball valve in the intake and I used a micro-switch until it broke. I wasn't impressed with the extra wiring either. I like worntorn's idea, but I need to incorporate it into my situation. At the moment I ride so little it's not an issue, but it does keep the oil out of the sump, and I too get much less leakage on the floor without the sump full. But notice I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about this. To each his/her own.

Glenn, do you have a link to a good picture of your setup?

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Dave, here it is with the key stuck in/oil off position



And here it is with the valve open, ignition key removed

I guess if your bike sits unstarted for months at a time, the valve and microswitch might not be a bad idea. My plan is for mine to sit idle only over the winter months and to do an oil change each spring to get it ready to go. And that would include pulling the sump plug and draining whatever oil's in the crankcase. So, no problem to solve.

worntorn said:

If you mean fix the bike with the AMR mod, it only works about 50% of the time. With the other 50%, the wet sumping continues merrily on. Matt Rambo of cNW reported these results from a number of bikes fitted with the AMR mod. So the AMR mod is worth trying, but don't count on it necessarily working.

Glen

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Are there ideas for why it only works 50% of the time? I have two Norton twins and they both like to wet-sump. I live with it and have always been hesitant to fit any sort of valve in the feed line for all the same reasons mentioned here. Was considering the AMR mod though as it seems the safest, cleanest way to address the issue, but I don't much like 50:50 odds! I see on the AMR site they machine and install O-rings between the two sides of the pump as well as the spring and ball mod in the cover. Is the oil pump mod a new addition to the service, and if so, does the 50% figure you quote include it or was this added to address the issue of not all of the ball and spring mods being successful? From the AMR website:

"Additionally, two o-ring seals are installed inside the pump to prevent oil from passing between the feed and return sides which also can contribute to wetsumping."


Tobin

Winter here is about 6 months of sitting before I start riding again. I change the oil before putting it away and only put about a quart in the tank.
This will certainly drain down over the winter. In the spring I put 2 full quarts in the tank before starting. Run it for a few minutes and check the oil.
In my mind it will keep the oil from seeping into the primary as its only a quart. Has worked for me the last couple of years. I also check the oil before starting during the riding season and if its below the 1 quart line I drain the sump and put it back into the tank. Its worked for me so far.
FWIW my HD Softail does the same thing. Drains to the sump. I also only put one quart in at the last fall change.
JMHO
MikeM

tpeever said:

worntorn said:

If you mean fix the bike with the AMR mod, it only works about 50% of the time. With the other 50%, the wet sumping continues merrily on. Matt Rambo of cNW reported these results from a number of bikes fitted with the AMR mod. So the AMR mod is worth trying, but don't count on it necessarily working.

Glen

Click to expand...

Are there ideas for why it only works 50% of the time? I have two Norton twins and they both like to wet-sump. I live with it and have always been hesitant to fit any sort of valve in the feed line for all the same reasons mentioned here. Was considering the AMR mod though as it seems the safest, cleanest way to address the issue, but I don't much like 50:50 odds! I see on the AMR site they machine and install O-rings between the two sides of the pump as well as the spring and ball mod in the cover. Is the oil pump mod a new addition to the service, and if so, does the 50% figure you quote include it or was this added to address the issue of not all of the ball and spring mods being successful? From the AMR website:

"Additionally, two o-ring seals are installed inside the pump to prevent oil from passing between the feed and return sides which also can contribute to wetsumping."


Tobin

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The 50/50 number might be a creation of my feeble memory. Here is Matt said in 2010-

W » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:55 amWe used the modification that AMR offers for many years. The first 30 bikes or so have it installed in the timing cover. These were done by another guy, I cant think of his name, that later gave the rights to AMR so they could offer the modification. I found the results very inconsistent with some bikes not sumping a bit and other draining down to the crank in a very short time. This was frustrating since I didnt know until the customers started reporting back to me after they took delivery of the machines. I know that some people dont mind the wetsumping but I dont want to tell my customers that they have to drain the oil out of the crank and pour it back into the oil tank before going on a ride.

tpeever said:

Are there ideas for why it only works 50% of the time? I have two Norton twins and they both like to wet-sump. I live with it and have always been hesitant to fit any sort of valve in the feed line for all the same reasons mentioned here. Was considering the AMR mod though as it seems the safest, cleanest way to address the issue, but I don't much like 50:50 odds! I see on the AMR site they machine and install O-rings between the two sides of the pump as well as the spring and ball mod in the cover. Is the oil pump mod a new addition to the service, and if so, does the 50% figure you quote include it or was this added to address the issue of not all of the ball and spring mods being successful? From the AMR website:

Tobin

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I guess I am one of the 50% that did not have success with the AMR mod. However, I didn't find fault with any of the work they did but the AMR mod addresses only 50% of the wet sumping problem. Another large portion of wet sumping on a Norton Commando is through the oil pressure relief valve. Also AMR does not resurface the end plates of the oil pump which I feel should be done to get the most benefit.

Here is a link describing my solution to this wet sump problem along with the AMR mod:
http://www.accessnorton.com/wet-sumping-oil-pressure-relief-valve-and-amr-modification-t21932.html

I did this mod over a year ago and have had excellent results. As a matter of fact there was a period of time last winter when I did not ride my bike for almost 8 weeks and the oil was still in the oil tank where it belongs.

So my summary on the AMR mod is that the work they do is fine. But it would be nice if AMR would resurface the end plates of the oil pump. As for the timing cover they could modify it by drilling the oil pressure relief drain hole just like the later 850 Mark III's and then plug the port where the oil originally went to the inlet side of the oil pump.


Peter Joe

PeterJoe said:

I guess I am one of the 50% that did not have success with the AMR mod. However, I didn't find fault with any of the work they did but the AMR mod addresses only 50% of the wet sumping problem. Another large portion of wet sumping on a Norton Commando is through the oil pressure relief valve. Also AMR does not resurface the end plates of the oil pump which I feel should be done to get the most benefit.

Here is a link describing my solution to this wet sump problem along with the AMR mod:
http://www.accessnorton.com/wet-sumping-oil-pressure-relief-valve-and-amr-modification-t21932.html

I did this mod over a year ago and have had excellent results. As a matter of fact there was a period of time last winter when I did not ride my bike for almost 8 weeks and the oil was still in the oil tank where it belongs.

So my summary on the AMR mod is that the work they do is fine. But it would be nice if AMR would resurface the end plates of the oil pump. As for the timing cover they could modify it by drilling the oil pressure relief drain hole just like the later 850 Mark III's and then plug the port where the oil originally went to the inlet side of the oil pump.


Peter Joe

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And that's why it only worked 50% of the time. Early model engines and 75 model engines returned the pressure relief oil to the timing chest. The AMR mod worked fine on these motors.
Somewhere about 72 through 74 the engines returned the relief oil to the inlet side of the pump. [bad move] The AMR mod did not help these motors very much without plugging and re-drilling the relief hole as Peter Joe shows. Once that is done the AMR mod works fine. Jim

Sounds like the summary of the "wet-sump" solutions is:

Forget the band-aids. Fix your motorcycle so it works properly. We don't have any problems upgrading Norton layshafts and Superblend bearings - those aren't band-aids, they're fixes that sort out the motorcycle properly.

Do the same with the oiling system instead of patching it with bodges.

Lannis

comnoz said:

PeterJoe said:

And that's why it only worked 50% of the time. Early model engines and 75 model engines returned the pressure relief oil to the timing chest. The AMR mod worked fine on these motors.
Somewhere about 72 through 74 the engines returned the relief oil to the inlet side of the pump. [bad move] The AMR mod did not help these motors very much without plugging and re-drilling the relief hole as Peter Joe shows. Once that is done the AMR mod works fine. Jim

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Thanks Jim. I haven't had my timing cover off in a long while so don't remember the details. Any idea what I should expect on a '74 model of VIN 318058?

Tobin

tpeever said:

comnoz said:

PeterJoe said:

And that's why it only worked 50% of the time. Early model engines and 75 model engines returned the pressure relief oil to the timing chest. The AMR mod worked fine on these motors.
Somewhere about 72 through 74 the engines returned the relief oil to the inlet side of the pump. [bad move] The AMR mod did not help these motors very much without plugging and re-drilling the relief hole as Peter Joe shows. Once that is done the AMR mod works fine. Jim

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Thanks Jim. I haven't had my timing cover off in a long while so don't remember the details. Any idea what I should expect on a '74 model of VIN 318058?

Tobin

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The 74 model would have the relief oil returned to the inlet side of the pump.

To make the AMR mod successful you would need to install a 1/4 inch setscrew in the case hole and drill a new hole similar to the 75 model year motor.

PeterJoe said:

So my summary on the AMR mod is that the work they do is fine. But it would be nice if AMR would resurface the end plates of the oil pump. As for the timing cover they could modify it by drilling the oil pressure relief drain hole just like the later 850 Mark III's and then plug the port where the oil originally went to the inlet side of the oil pump.
Peter Joe

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Do you know if AMR is aware of these additional steps needed on some models? I would think they would want to offer this additional service. My '72 engine is all apart now, and I would like to get it properly modified.
Bill