Anti wet sump valve sieze (2015)

Just to share my tale of woe, I fitted an anti wet sump valve to my 1970 fastback after rebuilding it 3000 miles ago. The bike has stood for 12 weeks over winter while the roads here are covered in salt. Started it last weekend, checked for a return of oil, tick, off we go. Ten miles later the bottom end locks up. Luckily I got the clutch in pretty quick but it was solid. The reason was that the AWSV should have the pipe connecting it to the timing chest primed. For 3000 miles of regular use that wasn't a problem, but over the 12 weeks of rest, that slug of oil had piddled away into the sump. The poor little pump was sucking on nothing. The oil that had initially been seen returning to the tank was the residual from the crank, feed pipe etc. I've yet to split the cases but the initial inspection shows a splattering of white metal flakes in the LH side of the crank cases and there seems to be some smearing of the edge of the conrod big end eye, on the alloy side at least. The bottom of the LH piston skirt has a witness mark where the stroke has increased to allow the crank to give it the good news. I'm hoping the smearing to the big end of the conrod is just superficial. So just in case you think the return of oil to your tank is an indicator that all is well, make sure that this return continues as a flow of frothy oil once the pump has dealt with the initial drain down. If that flow stops completely you must check the priming of the pipe below the valve. I'll let you all know what else I find :cry:

Yet another horror story caused by an anti-wet sump valve. These things should come with a health warning.
Throw that thing away as far as you can.

and .... another reason to fit a oil pressure gauge.
hope the damage is (relatively) minor.

I've posted how i have had 2 separate failure of the values, as other have too - yet they still get used and even championed by some folks on here. Hopefully your damage isn't to severe - but regardless it means a tear down and inspection - best of luck on it.

I take it this is a spring and ball type valve fitted in the oil feed line?


Glen

Sorry to hear about that Gripper, bad news indeed! I would definitely recommend a tap type valve with ignition interlock which I've had on mine for several years now. I did have the ball and spring type some years ago but got a bit worried about it having read some reports of failure on here, that's when I decided to put a manual shut-off valve on. Hope your crank has survived but I suspect it will need a grind unfortunately.

UGH gripper another mean 'manhood' tester to wake up too. I hope those emphasising the joy of dry bottoms help share it with you. At least your crank primary oil seal was saved as advertised. Head and crank bearings should be fine but ring/bores may be scored and the rod shells and cam lifters may be smeared. With the siezing loads put on the rod cap bolts I'd sure replace them too and I'd be suspicious of the piston intergrity as well. I suppose its possible the crank got jerked enough to bend some too.

Hobot, there is a big difference between a spring and ball valve in the oil feed and a manual shutoff with safety interlock, not the same animal.

Glen

worntorn said:

Hobot, there is a big difference between a spring and ball valve in the oil feed and a manual shutoff with safety interlock, not the same animal.

Glen

Click to expand...

Same effect though.

The type of valve detail is not lost on me worntorn so sticking w factory wet summping Commando style on Trixie. Next Peel has manual valve that must be turned open to get foot on peg or swing the kicker. Going Commando means nothing between urinary bladder out let and the ground. I do want some wet sump though so thinking of putting a drain level vent in the lower TS case to both montior oil pump wear and set desirable level of cold start wet sump before I close valve for longish parking. The TS drain could collect excess oil to dump back in w/o need of bottom feeder oil plug accessing hassle. I've tested benenfits ignoring full wet sump rev up starts on Trixie Combat > as oil shoots back so fast via the big down dirty 2ndary oil return breather hose, its another feature that floats Combats as Cream of the Crop to me. I'm abit depressed someone else will lose time money effort on advertised labor saving device. Best wishes applying 'common sense' to motorcycle decisions, espeically hobot's.

Triton Thrasher said:

worntorn said:

Hobot, there is a big difference between a spring and ball valve in the oil feed and a manual shutoff with safety interlock, not the same animal.

Glen

Click to expand...

Same effect though.

Click to expand...

Not really, the manual valve doesn't have or create the problem that the ball and spring does.
I have not seen a single report of a problem with a manual valve AND INTERLOCK setup, lots with many years of use.

There have been multiple problems with the ball and spring and also with people forgetting to turn on a non interlock type manual valve.

Glen

All too common. They don't need to set for months for this to happen either.
I had one do it at a gas stop after resting and drinking a soda for 30 minutes. Lucky I had an oil pressure gauge. Jim

Gripper sorry to hear about your bad luck. Still like to know very much what type/brand of AWSV was fitted before I get into panic :roll:

nortonspeed said:

Gripper sorry to hear about your bad luck. Still like to know very much what type/brand of AWSV ......

Click to expand...

+1 .... and thanks for posting this thread. I hope your crank survived

The valve is a Mick Hemmings item. The conrod is scrap, one shell twisted inside the other. When I was taking off the conrod nuts one galled and took the threads with it.. There is a one inch gouge in the from wall of the LH crankcase about 2 inches below the cam tunnel. Can't see what has done it and no loose articles apparent. The crank will survive with a grind but a question, do I have to split the crank and re-assemble without the flywheel for grinding, or can it be done as it is?

I hope the damage is not too severe Gripper, and not too expensive to put right!.

I was going to fit an anti drain valve, in-line type, to my Interstate, but after reading on this forum,on the damage they can do when they stick, I decided to not go anywhere near it!, have just ordered one of CNW/Jim Comstocks breathers, 0500-09, lucky for me I can just bolt it straight onto the back of my crankcase, or rather my Norton's crankcase...

Lets hope the damage is as minimal as it can be,

John

My valve didn't stick, it just became un-primed with 12 weeks off. When I sucked on it to test it, (not a very scientific test I know) I did think there was quite a restriction in the flow. These bike need all the oil they can get and if my oil starts its day in the crankcases from now on well so be it. (Andover Norton Conrods are £199 each +20%vat) :cry:

Gripper,

Is there anyone in your area who does the MK III type mod to the timing case for the oil pump output, similar to the AMR mod done on this side of the pond? If so, I recommend it. No way can it fail. I'm sure you will never put anything between the oil tank and oil pump again, including those gyro-gearloose, gonna' fail sometime gadgets that will surely bite someone in the ass, someday.

Hard lesson to learn. And expensive, too.

By the way, if you've not already done so, disassemble the oil pump and check for damage.

gripper said:

The valve is a Mick Hemmings item.

Click to expand...

You then probably have one of these alloy inline valves: Unfortunately tested for its dubious operation:

"Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested three types of automatic anti wet sump valves: RGM valve (closed alloy body), CNW valve (alloy with see-through part in the middle) and HNW oil tank valve. Compared to using none the RGM type valve effected an oil pressure drop of approximately 10% throughout the rev range where the CNW valve caused oil pressure loss close to nothing and the HNW valve causes no oil pressure drop at all. When I took the valves apart I found out the RGM type valve has a reasonably tight spring to press a steel ball on its seat preventing oil from entering where the CNW valve has a synthetic ball hold by a less tight spring and the HNW oil tank valve has a larger soft spring and ball pressing against a rubber seating instead of an alloy seating of the former two valves. I have used the HNW oil tank valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge) and will continue to use it until someone comes up with an even better one :!:"

This is the aforementioned oil tank valve.

The Hemmings valve has a mild steel seat and a stainless steel body. I have machining facilities albeit basic. Are there any details on the AMR mod?