Purity of design...

worntorn · Dec 15, 2019

acotrel said:
Between my brother and his friends there are 5 Vincent speedway outfits. My brother is always working on them. The other day he said ' if there is ever way to do something the wrong way when making a motorcycle, it has been done on a Vincent'. Every bolt is a special - it means you are always in the hands of the dealers. Phil Irving was an Australian, so we should all love Vincents. But he also designed Velocettes - another piece of crap. I actually knew him. I had to laugh, one of my mates shit-canned him at a race meeting, within hearing of his widow.

Not true ( the bolts) Other than a few special pieces , as you find on any motorcycle, they are just bolts and studs, mostly BSF and Cycle thread.
If your brother thinks every thing is " made wrong" on a Vincent, why on earth would he choose that brand to own? It can't be for cost savings, so it makes no sense.

Disparaging Irving to his widow is beyond rude.

Glen

acotrel · Dec 15, 2019

What my brother does is 'historic speedway sidecar'. Back in their day, Vincents were excellent. The other bike he has is a 1000cc 880 JAP. It has a 1029 motor, so I would have thought it would be slower, but it is quicker - but much more fragile than a Vincent.

The guy did not disparage Irving to his widow. He simply accidentally made a disparaging remark about Irving within her hearing - he did not know she was standing there within earshot.. But to the rest of us, it was quite funny. Phil Irving was a good guy and a very clever engineer, but his designs suck. Vincents and Velocettes are headache material. He did good work on Repco-Brabhams. He even made a 4-valve head for a Ford Falcon.

worntorn · Dec 15, 2019

acotrel said:
Phil Irving was a good guy and a very clever engineer, but his designs suck. Vincents and Velocettes are headache material. .

Coming from someone who does not own a Vincent nor rides a motorcycle on the road, I'll note your opinion and give it the weight it deserves.
Meantime I'll keep piling the miles on my 72 year old machine that has reliably toured hundreds of thousands of miles all over the world ,for five owners.

Glen

HRD · Dec 15, 2019

acotrel said:
Between my brother and his friends there are 5 Vincent speedway outfits. My brother is always working on them. The other day he said ' if there is ever way to do something the wrong way when making a motorcycle, it has been done on a Vincent'. Every bolt is a special - it means you are always in the hands of the dealers. Phil Irving was an Australian, so we should all love Vincents. But he also designed Velocettes - another piece of crap. I actually knew him. I had to laugh, one of my mates shit-canned him at a race meeting, within hearing of his widow.

Well your mate was very gallant ,Edith may not have heard his opinion as she was more than capable of giving an opinion .Also not many have co designed a couple of motorcycles ,helped in the design of a formula one winning car and written extensively on motor engineering so with all that a couple of errors should be allowed but you seem to rubbish all that have achieved anything .

robs ss · Dec 15, 2019

acotrel said:
Phil Irving was an Australian, so we should all love Vincents. But he also designed Velocettes - another piece of crap.

You missed one Alan,
He also worked with my Grandad (Joe Craig) on the design of the AJS Porcupine (500 parallel/horizontal twin)

desmo · Dec 16, 2019

acotrel said:
Between my brother and his friends there are 5 Vincent speedway outfits. My brother is always working on them. The other day he said ' if there is ever way to do something the wrong way when making a motorcycle, it has been done on a Vincent'. Every bolt is a special - it means you are always in the hands of the dealers. Phil Irving was an Australian, so we should all love Vincents. But he also designed Velocettes - another piece of crap. I actually knew him. I had to laugh, one of my mates shit-canned him at a race meeting, within hearing of his widow.

in defence of velocette the engines were strong and reliable but that clutch was a joke too

Bernhard · Dec 17, 2019

Maybe so, but do tell us what other bike manufacturer has done 100 mph for 24 hours? This record has stood since the 1960s. All I did for the clutch was make a steel bar and file a flat onto it and followed workshop manual,s instructions to get a working clutch! - which I admit that I didn't understand the first time.

desmo said:
in defence of velocette the engines were strong and reliable but that clutch was a joke too

desmo · Dec 17, 2019

Bernhard said:
Maybe so, but do tell us what other bike manufacturer has done 100 mph for 24 hours? This record has stood since the 1960s. All I did for the clutch was make a steel bar and file a flat onto it and followed workshop manual,s instructions to get a working clutch! - which I admit that I didn't understand the first time.

How about the Mead and Tomkinson Bsa b50 im sure it lapped at over 100 for 24 hrs at spa
and won lots of races
a friend won scottish grass track champion , with a dope burning hagon one and of course the ccm evolved from it
very underated bikes

Bernhard · Dec 17, 2019

if it did a 100 mph lap how come it couldn't beat the 500 MV Augusta in a GP?

Bernhard · Dec 17, 2019

On 18 March 1961 a factory-prepared Velocette Venom Clubman with fairing set the 24-hour world record at an average speed of 100.05 mph (161.01 km/h).[2][18] It was the first motorcycle of any size to top the 100 mph in 24 hours and, as at 2008, no motorcycle of the same capacity has been able to equal or improve on this record.[4] The record attempt took place at the Montlhéry oval track, a 2.7 km (1.7 miles) concrete track just outside Paris with a very uneven road surface and poor track lighting.[19] A team of six French riders were accompanied by Motor Cycling journalist Bruce Main-Smith, who achieved the best lap time of 107 mph despite the poor lighting conditions. After securing the 12-hour record at more than 104 mph (167 km/h), the team went on to complete the 24-hour endurance record attempt. Stopping only to change riders and refuel (from a bucket using a funnel), the Venom secured the world record. The publicity was very important for Velocette, as the success revived sales of the Venom, which went on to become one of Velocette's best-selling motorcycles.[16] The Venom which set the 24-hour world record is on display at the British National Motorcycle Museum.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocette_Venom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Walker_(motorcycling)

Even Paul Dunstall who had riders on a tuned dunstall 750 couldn't beat it at Monza

ericg · Dec 17, 2019

Bernhard said:
On 18 March 1961 a factory-prepared Velocette Venom Clubman with fairing set the 24-hour world record at an average speed of 100.05 mph (161.01 km/h).[2][18] It was the first motorcycle of any size to top the 100 mph in 24 hours and, as at 2008, no motorcycle of the same capacity has been able to equal or improve on this record.[4] The record attempt took place at the Montlhéry oval track, a 2.7 km (1.7 miles) concrete track just outside Paris with a very uneven road surface and poor track lighting.[19] A team of six French riders were accompanied by Motor Cycling journalist Bruce Main-Smith, who achieved the best lap time of 107 mph despite the poor lighting conditions. After securing the 12-hour record at more than 104 mph (167 km/h), the team went on to complete the 24-hour endurance record attempt. Stopping only to change riders and refuel (from a bucket using a funnel), the Venom secured the world record. The publicity was very important for Velocette, as the success revived sales of the Venom, which went on to become one of Velocette's best-selling motorcycles.[16] The Venom which set the 24-hour world record is on display at the British National Motorcycle Museum.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocette_Venom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Walker_(motorcycling)

Even Paul Dunstall who had riders on a tuned dunstall 750 couldn't beat it at Monza

That's a very impressive achievement.
Those Velocettes are really superb machines, I wish I'll own one in the future and put it alongside my Vincents despite the funny things written here by people who obviously have never ridden any of them and who have enough spare time to come on the Vincent dedicated section of this fine website just to say they are crap and they don't like them!

acotrel · Dec 21, 2019

I like to look at Velocettes. I would not like to own one. That gearbox arrangement means you cannot use anything but a Velocette gearbox. A Vincent cylinder head is similar. If you own an 880 JAP, there are many cylinder heads which can be fitted. I have even seen one with two 4 valve Rudge heads. What amazes me about the Vincents is that the 880 JAP is faster, if more fragile.

There are two ex-works DOHC KTT Velocettes here in Australia. They were brought back by Frank Mussett - a 350 and a 500. However if you want to historic race, they are not the bikes to do it with.

acotrel · Dec 21, 2019

One of the nicest bikes I have seen in recent years was a nut and bolt perfect Clubman' Velocette. I know why guys love them, but a Norton Inter would be more practical. These days, you could build a very nice Inter out of race parts, for road use. A while ago, I saw a very straight featherbed pushrod engine Norton which was not expensive, all you would need would be the Works Norton engine.

Bernhard · Dec 21, 2019

acotrel said:
One of the nicest bikes I have seen in recent years was a nut and bolt perfect Clubman' Velocette. I know why guys love them, but a Norton Inter would be more practical. These days, you could build a very nice Inter out of race parts, for road use. A while ago, I saw a very straight featherbed pushrod engine Norton which was not expensive, all you would need would be the Works Norton engine.

Have you seen the price of Norton inter parts? Obviously not - you can buy a Velo for the price of a ohc engine!

Bernhard · Dec 21, 2019

acotrel said:
I like to look at Velocettes. I would not like to own one. That gearbox arrangement means you cannot use anything but a Velocette gearbox.

You think?

ericg · Dec 22, 2019

acotrel said:
I like to look at Velocettes. I would not like to own one. That gearbox arrangement means you cannot use anything but a Velocette gearbox. A Vincent cylinder head is similar. If you own an 880 JAP, there are many cylinder heads which can be fitted. I have even seen one with two 4 valve Rudge heads. What amazes me about the Vincents is that the 880 JAP is faster, if more fragile.

There are two ex-works DOHC KTT Velocettes here in Australia. They were brought back by Frank Mussett - a 350 and a 500. However if you want to historic race, they are not the bikes to do it with.

Why on earth would anyone fit anything other than a Vincent cylinder head on a Vincent engine!?
The 8/80 JTOR 1100cc is a racing engine, not intended to power a road machine.
Maybe a Vincent twin tuned to Black Lightning specifications could be closer than you think.

desmo · Dec 23, 2019

acotrel said:
I like to look at Velocettes. I would not like to own one. That gearbox arrangement means you cannot use anything but a Velocette gearbox. A Vincent cylinder head is similar. If you own an 880 JAP, there are many cylinder heads which can be fitted. I have even seen one with two 4 valve Rudge heads. What amazes me about the Vincents is that the 880 JAP is faster, if more fragile.

There are two ex-works DOHC KTT Velocettes here in Australia. They were brought back by Frank Mussett - a 350 and a 500. However if you want to historic race, they are not the bikes to do it with.

the Ohv v twin Jap jtor and its variants are amazing , even the sportier versions of the side valve go well with a bit of black magic and no valve/piston bashing
these engines have won countless records since the early 20s and says a lot for simple design

rudge were way ahead with there 4 valve heads ,for instance fully radial design way before honda by 50 years
its just a pity they didnt make the combustion chamber a better shape

there is a guy from englandshire that races a tuned 250 rudge this thing has to be seen to believe how dammed quick it is it regulary embaresses alot of the more modern machinery

ive seen a few pushrod velo engines in fetherbed frames using the Amc box presumably the engine is mounted off the centre line by a fair bit or a bespoke belt primary

i rate the pushrod velo engine highly very narrow strong crank with timken taper roller mains and high up camshaft with short pushrods fine pitch timing gears
and it dosent sling oil out of the top end like an inter

i dare say if the vincent heads were not part of the frame integrity some one would have tried grafting on something else ! now ,Eric buel made some nice heads for v twins didnt he

Bernhard · Dec 23, 2019

Re; "I rate the pushrod velo engine highly very narrow strong crank with Timken taper roller mains and high up camshaft with short pushrods fine pitch timing gears
and it doesn't sling oil out of the top end like an inter"

The fine pitch helix gears are fine in themselves in keeping the timing chest noise down, however I would dump the a/r with its fibre cut gears, they have a nasty habit of breaking off, I broke two as did a work college who had a MSS. The alloy gear that is available with the manual cable A/r is a much more sensible arrangement.

ericg · Dec 23, 2019

desmo said:
i dare say if the vincent heads were not part of the frame integrity some one would have tried grafting on something else ! now ,Eric buel made some nice heads for v twins didnt he

Actually all manufacturers that are making VTwins are making nice heads for their engines, that's not a reason to put them on a Vincent engine!
By the way PE Irving designed a 4 valves head for his engine which never went to production stage.
The Horners brothers in Oz are making them to PEI design, they won at Daytona with the Irving Vincent despite factory backed opposition from Ducati and all.

Fast Eddie · Dec 24, 2019

4 valve heads, blah, blah.

Some of us are men of action, not just dreams...

I started out putting Ducati 4 valve heads on my Vincent.

The frame to head mounts didn’t work so I swapped out the frame.

Then I beefed up the bottom end with stronger crank and cases etc.

The enhanced performance necessitated upgrades of brakes, suspension, etc.

So here it is... my 8 valve Vincent...

Purity of design...

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