961 Design Philosophy

Stephen_Spencer said:
Don’t think there is one of my riding group that hasn’t had technical difficulties/breakdowns on their machines over the last 6 yrs or so. Ducati V4 spat its technical dummy several times and was awaiting a new dash before its total demise, MT10 refused to wake up after a heavy nights celebrating in Winton. BMW 1000R dead battery/charging system in the middle of nowhere (but luckily outside of a pub), Triumph 600 shedding its exhaust system etc etc.

But for a difficult to diagnose faulty positive terminal and snapped gear change rod, I would have made it home under my own steam in time for ‘tea and medals’ on every occasion, over that same period. We have those amongst our number that are hurtling towards 100K (km) on their 961’s. Faults’n’all though, I’d rather the occasional limp home on my characterful CR, than a guaranteed (likely forgettable) turbine trip home on a Honda appliance!;)

After-note - that’s gotta be the ‘kiss of death’ for tomorrow’s ride:oops:!
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There are faults… and then there are FAULTS.

When I bought my 961, I did so under the opinion that they had a reputation for ‘faults’ with various ancillaries like sensors etc. But that the core bike was over engineered and built like a tank.

I even bought a pair of FCRs from Kenny Dreer (what they were originally designed to use), ready to rip off all that troublesome modern stuff and replace with a simple ign and carbs IF it ever started causing me grief.

Somewhat ironically, I never had any such grief. But there was clearly something mechanically wrong in the primary, and little by little, I started reading and hearing about serious mechanical flaws: crank, pistons, rockers, balance shafts, clutch, gearbox, etc.

I‘ve got a shed full of old bikes that I readily accept have design flaws and need a lot of care to make and keep ‘right’ by modern standards. But the idea that my brand new ‘modern’ bike was perhaps even worse, well that was a bubble bursting moment for me. This bike was not a ‘project’ and I was not prepared to strip and blueprint the engine to make it ‘right’.

As others have already said, TVS need to demonstrate long term, high mileage robustness if they are to undo the damaged legacy left by SG.
 
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One thing which has always peeved me in engineering factories has been neglect to fully test a prototype to the design spec. ,, then freeze the drawings. The British invented quality management - the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine is evidence of that. In Australia, we also keep learning the same lessons.
Apparently when the Americans built the B29 bomber, there were continual modifications during the production runs
A Norton Commando is not that complex.
 
Fast Eddie said:
There are faults… and then there are FAULTS.

When I bought my 961, I did so under the opinion that they had a reputation for ‘faults’ with various ancillaries like sensors etc. But that the core bike was over engineered and built like a tank.

I even bought a pair of FCRs from Kenny Dreer (what they were originally designed to use), ready to rip off all that troublesome modern stuff and replace with a simple ign and carbs IF it ever started causing me grief.

Somewhat ironically, I never had any such grief. But there was clearly something mechanically wrong in the primary, and little by little, I started reading and hearing about serious mechanical flaws: crank, pistons, rockers, balance shafts, clutch, gearbox, etc.

I‘ve got a shed full of old bikes that I readily accept have design flaws and need a lot of care to make and keep ‘right’ by modern standards. But the idea that my brand new ‘modern’ bike was perhaps even worse, well that was a bubble bursting moment for me. This bike was not a ‘project’ and I was not prepared to strip and blueprint the engine to make it ‘right’.

As others have already said, TVS need to demonstrate long term, high mileage robustness if they are to undo the damaged legacy left by SG.
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Yep, don’t get me wrong FE - I know that there are serious potential faults that owners of Donington 961’s need to accept may be in their future. I think we are all alive to that. The difficulty I suppose is in their evaluation - which do owners resolve and which are better left alone. I don’t think anybody is suggesting that we all blueprint our engines are they?

There appear to be three groups of potential faults:

- Cheapskate shortcuts; knockoff relays/fuses etc - easily resolved.

- Friday bike faults (hand built assembly errors); clutch rivets etc - not too difficult to resolve (mostly).

- Design flaws; balance shafts, rockers etc - potentially serious, expensive and difficult to resolve.

Serious design flaws/faults that you mention (crank, pistons, rockers, balance shafts) are exactly that - serious, but I don’t think we know the extent of these, nor the likelihood of them occurring. I am not advocating doing the proverbial ostrich, but where does this leave the average owner. There are those that have literally had a free ride (no issues) whilst others have been plagued.

Rightly or wrongly I have chosen to address the ‘cheapskate shortcuts’ and resolve to address other faults should they occur - I’m guessing, but I think that this is the mainstream approach. Are we playing Russian roulette, or is this a legitimate approach? I guess only time and Km will tell.
 
City Garage said:
I think its wishful thinking they are going to sell more. The resale market says so, and the current "I want a new one" customer is almost nonexistent at least among my clientele. That would be the older more affluent who would buy customers. I've said it before, Norton had one bite of the apple and they are not going to get much if any more. Those here who wanted one already bought one either new or resale. Not being negative since I have parts to sell for them and service them but you are not going to get dealers in the USA jumping on these unless they get sold at a Mahindra dealer
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Sadly you're probably correct.
A redesigned NEW 961 may have finally become the machine it should have been back in 2010 when originally introduced. If that's the case it will still be a tough road for the factory because of the Royal Enfields and Triumphs out there that cost far less. The 961 is certainly exclusive and aesthetically superior to those, but at 3 times the price of a RE Intercepter, and twice the price of a Triumph Street Twin it will be a hard sell for Norton to compete. There are quite a few younger riders who do appreciate the classic design of these bikes, but they will never be able to afford the price of the 961s. RE and Triumph will get their money.
 
BritTwit said:
Sadly you're probably correct.
A redesigned NEW 961 may have finally become the machine it should have been back in 2010 when originally introduced. If that's the case it will still be a tough road for the factory because of the Royal Enfields and Triumphs out there that cost far less. The 961 is certainly exclusive and aesthetically superior to those, but at 3 times the price of a RE Intercepter, and twice the price of a Triumph Street Twin it will be a hard sell for Norton to compete. There are quite a few younger riders who do appreciate the classic design of these bikes, but they will never be able to afford the price of the 961s. RE and Triumph will get their money.
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I agree 100%. I’ve said this all along with exactly what you say as a fact.
Triumph owns the retro market and will continue to.
They offer a far more dependable, cost effective and dealership support than Norton could ever do.

I get the love and attraction of the 961, but let’s be honest, we here are biased. That’s expected, this is a Norton forum.

I just found a 2017 Thruxton R all black, with tasteful Triumph factory accessories added, that only has 205 miles and the asking price is $9800 USD.
If I had the room for another bike, I’d of probably of bought it.
 
Voodooo said:
I agree 100%. I’ve said this all along with exactly what you say as a fact.
Triumph owns the retro market and will continue to.
They offer a far more dependable, cost effective and dealership support than Norton could ever do.

I get the love and attraction of the 961, but let’s be honest, we here are biased. That’s expected, this is a Norton forum.

I just found a 2017 Thruxton R all black, with tasteful Triumph factory accessories added, that only has 205 miles and the asking price is $9800 USD.
If I had the room for another bike, I’d of probably of bought it.
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Ive seen those deals so often and keep passing them up...one day it will be the right one because those are so much fun to ride in sport mode!!!
 
I’ve had a Thuxton and a Bonneville - and now have a T120 Bonneville that I bought a month or two ago.

Same thing I always say. One is an appliance, one is a motorcycle. You need to own at least one appliance, but many motorcycles.

I’ve happily bought and sold Triumphs without attachment and suspect I will continue to do so.
 
I think my 2020 Thruxton RS looks just fine. It gets more comments from the lay public than my 961, but less than the 961 from enthusiasts due to the Norton name and novelty. 105 hp and it is probably the best handling bike I've owned. I've replaced the black engine covers with brushed aluminum since the pic was taken. Nothing sterile or appliance like about this bike. Also got a deal new for $12900. Same as paid for my 961 as a 2 year old demo.
 

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Boss302 said:
I think my 2020 Thruxton RS looks just fine. It gets more comments from the lay public than my 961, but less than the 961 from enthusiasts due to the Norton name and novelty. 105 hp and it is probably the best handling bike I've owned. I've replaced the black engine covers with brushed aluminum since the pic was taken. Nothing sterile or appliance like about this bike. Also got a deal new for $12900. Same as paid for my 961 as a 2 year old demo.
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Nice!
 
BritTwit said:
Nice!
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Yes a very nice bike it is. Seems odd to say but this is why I didn't buy one and instead purchased a Kaw Z900RS . The Triumph would have pushed my Norton 961 into retirement . Or at least this was my fear by having a bike so close but so much better. In fact my fear was so pervasive that I would have purchased a R9T instead . Justifying it with thoughts of it has a shaft drive , it is a air/oil cooled twin , it has 100 + hp , a large fuel tank and good mpg , it handles good etc... The Kaw came at a good price and performance is on par with the new retros , so this won out. And the feel is so different that it will never replace the Norton 961 in my mind .
 
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I am toying with the idea of getting a ZX400rr that just came out .
 
TonyA said:
Yes a very nice bike it is. Seems odd to say but this is why I didn't buy one and instead purchased a Kaw Z900RS . The Triumph would have pushed my Norton 961 into retirement . Or at least this was my fear by having a bike so close but so much better. In fact my fear was so pervasive that I would have purchased a R9T instead . Justifying it with thoughts of it has a shaft drive , it is a air/oil cooled twin , it has 100 + hp , a large fuel tank and good mpg , it handles good etc... The Kaw came at a good price and performance is on par with the new retros , so this won out. And the feel is so different that it will never replace the Norton 961 in my mind .
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We're on the same page. I was a kaw DOHC guy in the mid to late 70s and owned a 73 Z1 and 78 LTD back then. This was after my Commando phase in the early 70s. In 2019 I couldn't resist the root beer/orange Z900rs and at just under $10k I succumbed and bought one. I've come to prefer the steady acceleration of the twins over the jerky erratic acceleration of the fours but the Z900rs is in my riding rotation. I just sold a restored 73 Z1 for $26,500. Who'd have thought 10 years ago that some of the most collectable classics would be Japanese bikes, but the 69 CB750 and the Kaw 2 strokes and select 4s are big buck bikes now. I know the BMW retro is a quality machine but for some reason I've never had an attraction to BMWs. The 961 is still in my rotation but I'm becoming more apprehensive as one problem after another arises. I'll stick with it though.
 
TonyA said:
Yes a very nice bike it is. Seems odd to say but this is why I didn't buy one and instead purchased a Kaw Z900RS . The Triumph would have pushed my Norton 961 into retirement . Or at least this was my fear by having a bike so close but so much better. In fact my fear was so pervasive that I would have purchased a R9T instead . Justifying it with thoughts of it has a shaft drive , it is a air/oil cooled twin , it has 100 + hp , a large fuel tank and good mpg , it handles good etc... The Kaw came at a good price and performance is on par with the new retros , so this won out. And the feel is so different that it will never replace the Norton 961 in my mind .
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I actually sold my R9T in order to get the 961.

Was a nice bike, I enjoyed it a lot…

961 Design Philosophy
961 Design Philosophy
 
acotrel said:
The design philosophy of the 962 Commando interests me..
Aircraft have similarities with motorcycles. During WW2, there were many different types aircraft created to suit many different roles. To my mind, the 961 is simply a development of the early Commando. But where is it going ?
I do not know what genre it fits into and which consumer market segment at which it is directed.
A nostalgia kick is always good - the whole British tourist industry is based on it. But is that enough to sell 961 Commandos ?
Perhaps the 961 fills a need for a sporty cruiser ?
When aircraft were purchased during WW2, tenders were called to a design specification, which involved role and purpose.
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Hello the Commando 961 design was done by a bunch of kids for there engineering thesis in California technical college base on the old Commando and the only thing that is British on these Bikes I the Name Norton every thing on this bike has been made world wide in cluing china and even the screws and nuts and bolts made in china suspension made in Sweden the brakes made in Italy frame made in India and many other components So the only thing British is the Name of Norton on the Tank
 
annajeannette said:
Hello the Commando 961 design was done by a bunch of kids for there engineering thesis in California technical college base on the old Commando and the only thing that is British on these Bikes I the Name Norton every thing on this bike has been made world wide in cluing china and even the screws and nuts and bolts made in china suspension made in Sweden the brakes made in Italy frame made in India and many other components So the only thing British is the Name of Norton on the Tank
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Wow this is a bit of a revelation - thanks for bringing this to our attention. The Norton company is based in Solihull and has designers, administrators and production factory staff. The 961 is not advertised and sold as a bike which has every component manufactured and assembled in Britain and never has. Can you follow through on this please; is this a bit of trolling aimed at 961 owners? I thought that this had run its course years ago on the NOC site. Or are you suggesting that Norton should be totally UK owned and funded and every component manufactured in the UK? I think you need to check your watch; I suspect it may have stopped around 1930.
 
Clive said:
Wow this is a bit of a revelation - thanks for bringing this to our attention. The Norton company is based in Solihull and has designers, administrators and production factory staff. The 961 is not advertised and sold as a bike which has every component manufactured and assembled in Britain and never has. Can you follow through on this please; is this a bit of trolling aimed at 961 owners? I thought that this had run its course years ago on the NOC site. Or are you suggesting that Norton should be totally UK owned and funded and every component manufactured in the UK? I think you need to check your watch; I suspect it may have stopped around 1930.
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If you are a NOC member you may be familiar with Anna's very personal opinions on many subjects, including what constitutes a Norton
 
Martha said:
If you are a NOC member you may be familiar with Anna's very personal opinions on many subjects, including what constitutes a Norton
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Yes I remember
One half was rubbish the other half was plain wrong
But it was the abuse that got her thrown off the site I believe
 
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