Norton commando 850 huge mistake (2013)

Hobot · Jan 1, 2014

Eventually it will sink in to the next generation that wet sump is good even if hard to kick over and occasionally blows a weak crank seal, any thing else but a fail safe non electrical shut off is living with unneeded risk and we'll get continuing tales about seasonally of some type of failure by installing or just time. Less and less of course as news gets out. Ya goofed double to my mind so like only dating a sheep once its enough to stick forever. :lol:

Larso1 · Jan 1, 2014

pete.v said:
Here is a quote from SRM.

"We frequently get asked the question about wet sumping.

We DO NOT recommend fitting any such non return valves on the feed side of the pump as gear pumps are not designed to suck with no oil in the body. This can result in instant engine failure."

Actually, MOST gear pumps like MOST positive displacement pumps are self priming, even on a dry lift system that's properly designed with no air leaks on the suction side. However, they must be in good condition with close internal clearances between the gears and the side plates. In the case of a stock configuration Norton, the suction side of the pump is always flooded... therefore no issues. But as we all know from the horror stories, the problem arises when installing a spring-loaded self closing valve between the oil tank and pump suction that won't easily open (possibly due to contaminated oil around the ball/piston, or a return spring with too much force, or a combination of the two). In my opinion, you take your chances with these self closing valves. Even a normally closed pilot-operated valve, opening with pressure from the pump, would be risky because if oil pressure in the system drops for any reason....valve closes and motor is toast. :shock:

Upon further thought, I shouldn't even have mentioned a pilot-operated self closing valve. I don't think it would work here; even with oil in the line from the tank to the pump it would probably cycle open and closed until it finally stayed closed. So don't even think about one of those in the line...

http://www.hawsepipe.net/chiefhelp/pump ... _pumps.htm

RoadScholar · Jan 2, 2014

Maybe it is time for a small dose of reality?

Too bad for your motorcycle, make sure that you kick the owner in the backside...

There are several anti wet sump valves out there and they work as designed when installed correctly (with one historic exception IIRC).

Try starting your Norton when all the oil is in the bottom end. Not only is hydraulic lock a possibility, but until the scavenge side of the pump gets sufficient oil back to the tank you have little or no oil pressure. Of course the purists among us are happy to realize this possibility and spend the extra 30 to 45 minutes to drag out the catch pan and drain the sump into a clean vessel then return it to the tank between rides; not me, I want to kick and ride.

Based on the lack of attention to detail (of installing the valve) you are going to rebuild this engine??? If you think the level of judgment required to install an anti wet sump valve was overwhelming the rest of your nightmare is pure rocket science.

Sorry mate, the riding season is over for your mount; find a competent mechanic to do the make over or buy a Japanese ride. I apologize for my heavy hand, but you put it out there I'm sure that you are not feeling great about the outcome; you have plenty of company out there when it comes to DIY. It is situations like this that should serve to remind all of us that every part of your motorcycle is there for a reason and that safe operation of an inherently dangerous machine is based on all parts being up to par and working well together.

Bill.

marc · Jan 2, 2014

i was just about to install one of these valves in my Commando, but this thread really got me thinking.

maybe i will just leave it and drain the oil out of the oiltank for wintersleep to prevent sumping.

Dances with Shrapnel · Jan 2, 2014

After reading through this thread I see a funny little conundrum which is:

"If your oil pump is in good shape, there should be no problem in opening the spring loaded anti drain valve"

Yet you really do not need an anti drain valve if your oil pump is in good shape.

I would be extremely leery about putting anything between the oil tank and the suction side of the oil feed pump that would even hint of restriction. I have seen too much carnage due to seemingly benign suction side resistance. Oil does strange and unusual things when you try to "pull" it through with too much pressure/friction loss (ie oil vapor lock). In pumping system design there is a term called Net Positive Suction Head (NPSH) where it is often stipulated as a minimum requirement for the pump to perform safely (ie positive pressure on the intake side); if not achieved and maintained you will get cavitation and pump destruction.

Not saying trying to "fix" the wet sumping problem is a bad thing but you need to use good judgment. Stay away from anything that even hints of inline restriction.

Hobot · Jan 2, 2014

Ugh, I've heard of maybe 4-5 reports on blown out crank seal events that makes oily mess out primary area but about 2 dozen, over 15 yr I"ve been paying attention, of ruined engines form lack of flow through a sump device. Get an air or vapor bubble in the spinning grears may cavitate so nil pull to open sucktion activated valves. Comnoz has described how its impossible to hydro lock a Commando from wet sump oil amounts. Even if it could no big deal ya ain't going to hurt anything but the kicker grip on the splines, so just drain and then kick'er over if so cold the oil is about gelled in the bottom. All the various vent/breather devices factory to aftermarket provide adequate escape route if oil level gets bumped by descending pistons. When I find my oil tank empty and know It had adequate oil on shut down I just add a cup or so to prime pump and supply 30 sec oil till sump oil flowing back faster than sucking out. Most sensable valve to me would be a supermagnet with a sealing layer glued on to snap over sump plug hole to pull off long enough to drain down for easy kick over than snap back and ride. Unless off roading with hi centering events there is not enough heat in crank cases to de-magnetize and not enough vibes or wind drag to loose the magnet on the fly. Oil pSI guage showing pressure a handful of seconds after start up would be a good idea with anti-sump device users. Outboard motor gas tanks have a squeeze bulb to prime fuel flow before starts so another safety aid to consider for the disciplined worried anti-sump device fitters. Not a good idea to let a C'do idle slow on cold start ups or any time as cam speed not oil surfing and wipes off protective ZAPD in a few revolutions and does form again till full parts and oil temps reached, which can be wiped right off sitting hot idling before shut down, which is very very hard for me as I love the soft deep sound so much too.

chasbmw · Jan 4, 2014

If anyone in the UK or US wants to buy any parts from Holland Norton works, they might be put off by the high costs charged by our banks for transfers to a Dutch bank, typically £10-20 plus a Lousy exchange rate.

I have just used this company, quick and easy.

http://transferwise.com/u/59c51. They also have an Apple App, other friends of mine use it and rate it highly.

Johnnymac · Jan 4, 2014

chasbmw said:
If anyone in the UK or US wants to buy any parts from Holland Norton works, they might be put off by the high costs charged by our banks for transfers to a Dutch bank, typically £10-20 plus a Lousy exchange rate.

I have just used this company, quick and easy.

http://transferwise.com/u/59c51. They also have an Apple App, other friends of mine use it and rate it highly.

Why don't they just accept credit cards or paypal like 99% of online vendors? They won't be getting my business. I'm an IT Security professional and would advise against any type of bank transfer. (Not to mention, as others have said, it' s probably a bad a idea to put something in line to the delivery side of the oil system). Just sayin :lol:

I am getting the AMR mod... if that doesn't work, I will just sell my Norton and get a Honda. -J/K

chasbmw · Jan 4, 2014

You will find that a lot of Dutch and German vendors don't accept paypal and/ or credit cards. Credit carb useage in those countries is much lower than US and UK and with cheap bank transfers within the Eurozone, they must feel that they dont need the extra costs of Credit cards and Paypal. hopefully the reduced costs are reflected in their prices.

kommando · Jan 4, 2014

I have an auto non return valve fitted to my Commando, its been fitted for 20 years will no ill effects but I did testing and adjustments of my own. I bought an air line non return valve which is dismantleable, steel bodied with a ball and spring, seat for the ball is rubber lined, I adjusted the length of the spring until a gentle blow from my mouth would open the valve, its was set to 1/2 Bar as purchased which is too high. Also I refresh the pump clearances every 7 to 8 thousand miles, prime the oil lines if I ever mess with them and check for oil return to the tank on the first start of the day.

Hobot · Jan 4, 2014

This sort of gets down to one's life philosophy on risk taking, similar to split axle half life, some will never fail in our life times but some percentage surely will. Marriage and riding cycles are like this too. May your bottoms stay dry till they lube up fast like the tramp next door.

Norton commando 850 huge mistake (2013)

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