No more FullAuto heads?

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looking at the current price for a new head it might pay to buy a complete Commando or engine to get a replacement head ;)

You are comparing a solid brick with a rotten swiss cheese. If you've been into the classic bike scene for 10 years or more, you realise that to build a durable bike you need NEW parts and there are no cheap fixes.

-Knut
 
Anyone wanting to pursue this really should contact Pete Langley at Port Townsend Foundry. He specializes in marine hardware but is old school, brilliant and does custom aluminum casting. I have not spoken with him in years now, but I know he has done automotive castings to replicate vintage race motors.

http://www.porttownsendfoundry.com/

Thanks for the link ... seriously enjoyed
 
Agreed, however that won't be for a while as (fullauto)heads are still available and looking at the current price for a new head it might pay to buy a complete Commando or engine to get a replacement head ;)

Where are they still available? I thought all of the last batch were already sold.

Ken
 
You are comparing a solid brick with a rotten swiss cheese. If you've been into the classic bike scene for 10 years or more, you realise that to build a durable bike you need NEW parts and there are no cheap fixes.-Knut

Knut you lost me there, I am talking about availability of a Commando head not about cheap fixes. A Commando head is usually very well rebuildable to new (or even better with bronze exhaust threads). By the way I am still using my 45 year old original ‘rotten swiss cheese’ Commando head.

Ken a quick search on the net: fullauto heads are still offered by Andover Norton and Holland Norton Works.
 
Anyone wanting to pursue this really should contact Pete Langley at Port Townsend Foundry.

You must be joking. For the complex shape of the Norton cylinder head, a foundry which specializes in automotive castings including head castings using either the low pressure core packet / hybrid casting process, or the lost foam casting process has to be sought.

Addition: In one of Ken's early presentations, he claimed the heads are made of alloy 6061 in temper state T6. I guess he meant that ingots were 6061, as you can't use 6061 in a low pressure casting application due to poor flow characteristics - it's a wrought alloy, albeit with excellent mechanical properties in the T6 temper state. It has been used for centrifugal casting though.
If I were to engineer a new run of heads, I would have chosen A357 in temper state T6. Almost on par with 6061 in terms of mechanical properties, A357 is typically used in situations where high strength combined with high corrosion resistance and pressure tightness are required. Thanks to 7% Silicon and 0.6% Magnesium, A357 has very good casting and machining characteristics which makes it the logical choice for intricate and complex castings where lightweight, pressure tightness and excellent mechanical properties are needed.

-Knut
 
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You must be joking. For the complex shape of the Norton cylinder head, a foundry which specializes in automotive castings including head castings using either the low pressure core packet / hybrid casting process, or the lost foam casting process has to be sought.

-Knut

Thruxton heads were sand cast presumably on an as necessary basis... surely no such foundry using the technology you mention would be interested in such small production runs except at mega high prices.. and you still have to find a pattern maker.. there is nothing wrong per se with traditional foundary methods provided the mould is properly vented with risers and supplied with appropriate feeders and poured at the right temperature. Naturally it will be very expensive .
 
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Let's not form a negative atmosphere where ideas and proposals are suppressed, especially if those ideas have some merits. It should be legitimate to discuss possible improvements to a product without being accused of disrespect to the founders or accused of boasting only. There are also lessons to be learnt here. Steve - Isn't your expressions the form of attitude which brought the british m/c industry down? Loyalty to an ongoing project and the people who run it is a good quality while it lasts, but the FA project has been terminated finally as I understand Ken's public postings.

I am sure I speak for Jim also as I would like to express gratitude and admiration of the tremendous effort put forward by Ken in creating such a complex and high quality product at an affordable price, and I for one will regret having missed the opportunity to buy one or more heads.



Is it better? Is that statement based on dyno evidence, your sole opinion, or an opinion of consensus from track testers? We have seen the Cycle World torque graphs of roadster 750's and 850's w/OEM heads quite recently and there are large weak domains above 3500 rpm and too early drops at higher rpms when compared to the contemporary Ducati 750's, for instance. Yes, Jim C. has proven very good breathing of the FA head design, but I have yet to see a torque graph of the FA heads enabling a comparison with the afore mentioned graphs.



Steve - I think your last comment is completely inappropriate at this point in time. A venture like this has to be based on commercial desicisions only, unless health or old age comes into play.

-Knut

Knut, the point is, as you and I both understand, it is no longer an ongoing project. Which is a great pity. If someone else picks up the project I would expect them to take their own direction. Maybe even run a discussion as part of working out what that direction may be. Starting from the baseline set would be fine, having a concept for further development may be useful, but I suspect part of the market would always be people who just want a bolt on for a road bike restoration project. Whatever other potential there is you would need to keep sight of that.

No, my attitude does not relate to the demise of the British motorcycle industry, I built and race my bike as an exercise in nostalgia, not in modern motorcycle development. I don't expect a modern motorcycle to use technology from the 1950s warmed over for the 1970s! I like old bikes because they are old, I think that modern motorcycle technology is behind the drag curve already in both chassis and motive power!

You may think my comment inappropriate, but I think I have seen several inappropriate comments made regarding the Fullauto project that will have influenced Len's decision.

Read Ken over time, I read it that is has hardly been a commercial project, rather it has been a passionate project, done because the initiator wanted to and done and despite the commercial issues.

I would agree that if it is to survive in any way from here on in it will need to be commercial and will need to pay it's way.
 
Please tell us more. Which part did you design for Nortons, was there an added value built-in, what was the asking price (vs. a comparative product), how did you market it, and for how long?

-Knut
Actually two.

The US License plate brackets: http://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/LPB.aspx have sold a few sets, but I'm still well in the hole. The sets I sold on eBay "earned" me $1.75 each. The ones I've sold direct "earned" me $2.00 each. It costs a lot to have parts manufactured in small quantities! I say "earned" because if I include the time I spent researching, designing, working with the machine shop, powder coating them myself, and dealing with orders, I would probably be $100 each in the hole!

Due to illness, the Battery/Oil Pressure Monitor is ready but I haven't had time to assemble: http://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/BOPM.aspx.

To my knowledge, there are no comparative products to either. The CNW license holder serves the same function, replaces a portion of the OEM taillight mount, is nice, but costs about 3x mine.
 
...............

Is it better? Is that statement based on dyno evidence, your sole opinion, or an opinion of consensus from track testers? We have seen the Cycle World torque graphs of roadster 750's and 850's w/OEM heads quite recently and there are large weak domains above 3500 rpm and too early drops at higher rpms when compared to the contemporary Ducati 750's, for instance. Yes, Jim C. has proven very good breathing of the FA head design, but I have yet to see a torque graph of the FA heads enabling a comparison with the afore mentioned graphs.

-Knut

the first ever tuning notes I ever read were written by John Hudson, who had a preference for not increasing valve head size, but rather improving flow around the standard sized valves. I guess that has stuck with me because that was 43 years ago.

I read in various places says that the re-angling of Commando valves to achieve clearance between moving valve heads and has no other performance benefit in itself. The performance benefits are derived from the larger valves increasing flow with suitably modified ports. There are suggestions that the revised angle can mask the port and reduce flow. Do I personally have 'evidence?...no.

In my naivity I would also expect that if Jim and Ken entered into this project of improvement and thought there was a significant benefit to be had from simply re-angling the valves at standard size they might well have chosen to do so?

The Fullauto ports were designed to work with the standard valves that Ken expected most to use! I am told Mick Hemmings big valved every one he sold, bar mine, and he certainly told me he should do mine! I decided to see how it worked before considering big valves. Nothing has persuaded me I need to change them.

My 750 short stroke has been on a dyno, but some time back and was not run to it's full potential at the time being very fresh. It made respectable RWHP at 6500 with a lot of potential left. Does this prove anything? Not to me, except that in performance terms it is in the ball park with to the 850 I used to have which had a fully hemisphered ex Thruxton shorts stroke head, big valves and Omega pistons, but that unfortunately did tangle it's big vavles at one point!

Is this scientific, no. But the configuration was modeled and none of the feedback from that suggested I was making a big mistake.

On track testing (racing!), it hasn't been out dragged out of a corner by another 750 or 850 Norton, rather the other way really, and the thing has to carry me, and I seem to be a little larger than my competitors! I tend to be beaten by faster riders, but on the right circuits I have been able to stay with 1980s four cylinder 750s, and even 1300s.

I would expect to be out dragged by well developed 920s and 1007s, but in the two cases I have exited a corner near one, I was definitely being out ridden by the pilots, who were lapping me!
 
You must be joking. For the complex shape of the Norton cylinder head, a foundry which specializes in automotive castings including head castings using either the low pressure core packet / hybrid casting process, or the lost foam casting process has to be sought.

-Knut
Since they were able to produce virtually the same head castings (Dominator) in 1949 post war England, I would think
that with today's technology (computers, CNC, 3D printing, etc..) they would be easier to produce today.
 
You must be joking. For the complex shape of the Norton cylinder head, a foundry which specializes in automotive castings including head castings using either the low pressure core packet / hybrid casting process, or the lost foam casting process has to be sought.

-Knut
would it make a diff cost wise coming up with something new where fit/function/simplicity was the focus rather than including original shape?

you could go with studs rather than the original screw in norton exhaust clamp,

i went that way when my threads striped & used a yam xs650 clamp
 
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The US License plate brackets: http://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/LPB.aspx have sold a few sets, but I'm still well in the hole.

Hi Greg, to be frank, I think you should work a bit more on both designs to enhance the "Wow" factor. The bracket solution looks a bit crude. No customer is interested in seing a picture of a slightly corroded semi-finished bracket, and watching the number plate fitted to a tail light which looks like its 40 years old is no good advertisement. These images will likely put the customer off.

As for the yet to be released battery conditon & oil pressure monitor, I suggest you do a market research before commencing. Is this a product the biker wants? Personally I would be confused by mixing these functions, and wouldn't buy it for this reason. Again, work on your presentation.

No reason these products shouldn't sell if thought out and having a good design as well as presented in an attractive way (look to CnW). I have another idea for you - will send a pm soon.

-Knut
 
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Hi Greg, to be frank, I think you should work a bit more on both designs to enhance the "Wow" factor. No customer is interested in seing a picture of a slightly corroded semi-finished bracket, and watching the number plate fitted to a tail light which looks like its 40 years old is no good advertisement. These images will likely put the customer off.

As for the yet to be released battery conditon & oil pressure monitor, I suggest you do a market research before commencing. Is this a product the biker wants? Personally I would be confused by mixing these functions, and wouldn't buy it for this reason. Again, work on your presentation.

No reason these products shouldn't sell reasonably well if well designed and thpught out, and nicely presented. I have another idea for you - will send a pm soon.

-Knut

A common problem today is people are only interested in the Wow factor and don't bother reading. Had you read you would have seen that the brackets are available in four forms including raw. Not sure how I would make a bracket a "Wow", but then marketing is not my talent.

There are plenty of threads here about oil pressure mentoring and voltage monitoring. Since no one has what I designed, I can only guess that some Norton riders will want it, and it's useful on more than Norton. The only negative comment I've ever received is what I consider to be the most important feature! One person didn't like that the light would be green as long as everything is OK. On Norton, you need the Madass oil pressure switch. On others, like Triumph, nothing additional is required. I have a list of Triumph riders waiting and a couple of Norton riders so I think it will do fine this winter. But I would not have bothered had I not wanted it for my bikes since I make WAY more money for my time in other endeavors.
 
You must be joking. For the complex shape of the Norton cylinder head, a foundry which specializes in automotive castings including head castings using either the low pressure core packet / hybrid casting process, or the lost foam casting process has to be sought.

-Knut

-Knut

Dan used an old-time local foundry for this

http://velobanjogent.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-roarer-re-createddan-smith-in.html?m=1

and this

https://cdnbkr.ca/built-scratch-ajs-v4/

and this

https://www.motorcycleclassics.com/classic-british-motorcycles/vincent-rapide-a-twin-zmmz12sozbea
 
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would it make a diff cost wise coming up with something new where fit/function/simplicity was the focus rather than including original shape? You could go with studs rather than the original screw in norton exhaust clamp. i went that way when my threads striped & used a yam xs650 clamp

The threaded exhaust "roses" are a weak point because of the heat, the vibrations and the soft material. Reading Jim C.'s latest experience led me to the same idea and I think it should be feasible, but being an iconic part of the bike/engine this should be considered carefully. A bolted flange hidden by the wings of a revised "rose" could be considered a big improvement of the head. Cost wise it shouldn't make a big difference. Revised exhaust "roses" would be a necessary addition, fairly cheap to make I think (China, India).

-Knut
 
A common problem today is people are only interested in the Wow factor and don't bother reading. Had you read you would have seen that the brackets are available in four forms including raw. Not sure how I would make a bracket a "Wow", but then marketing is not my talent.

Please don't be offended - just making a few proposals for your benefit. I noticed the bracket versions. Well - if you've discovered that people are intrigued by the "Wow" factor, then you know what to do! If a product doesn't sell - always be willing to listen to the customer's needs and design accordingly. You may build anything to serve your own needs, but if you want to sell to the public you need to address their needs, not yours. As far as marketing goes - you should liaise with someone (GF?) who is in the know.

-Knut
 
Dan used an old-time local foundry for this <...>

Dan Smith is a very talented man, doing most of the machining and design work himself. These are one-offs, less accurate than the originals, and money does not seem to be an issue. It's difficult to assess the complexity of his castings. Anyway, producing hundreds of cylinder heads as Ken did requires a different approach including a much stricter quality control.

-Knut
 
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