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Bevelheadmhr said:

BMWs are hardly cheap, whatever the size. Its been confirmed that there will be a 450 twin Norton built by TVS.

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I would like to see a Norton twin like the Triumph Speed twin 1200 . That kind of power and torque etc..

My guess is, like the little beemers, the 450 Norton will be spec’d to the market it’s going to enter. It’s not heading for the premium market and as such is (very) unlikely to be wearing Ohlins et al’. No doubt it’ll have a bit of tech onboard though.

Bevelheadmhr said:

BMWs are hardly cheap, whatever the size. Its been confirmed that there will be a 450 twin Norton built by TVS.

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What’s this?
That’s one of the cheapest BMW’s you can buy next to one of the cheapest Triumphs.
BMW doesn’t even make that bike.

Seems you’re missing my point.

robs ss said:

I suggest a new forum be created called "Whinge, Whinge & Shit Can Each Other"

Seems to happen far too often in what, otherwise, appears to be a innocent (productive even ) thread.

Geeez!

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Cool idea, and maybe you can moderate it since you seem to already have a PhD in whining about whining.

Stephen_Spencer said:

My guess is, like the little beemers, the 450 Norton will be spec’d to the market it’s going to enter. It’s not heading for the premium market and as such is (very) unlikely to be wearing Ohlins et al’. No doubt it’ll have a bit of tech onboard though.

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I doubt the BMW level of tech. Probably use the same dash they use for the Apache or the older version, which is like the older triumph with a mechanical tach next to a digital gauge. SS, you have to get your head wrapped around that they will use the tech they have, not reinvent the wheel.

City Garage said:

I doubt the BMW level of tech. Probably use the same dash they use for the Apache or the older version, which is like the older triumph with a mechanical tach next to a digital gauge. SS, you have to get your head wrapped around that they will use the tech they have, not reinvent the wheel.

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I have no expectation about revolutionary new tech on a budget bike CG.

Stephen_Spencer said:

I have no expectation about revolutionary new tech on a budget bike CG.

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So when you say "No doubt it’ll have a bit of tech onboard though," I'm curious what exactly that means? Because TVS bikes aren't known for their "tech" unless it's another manufacturer like BMW.

City Garage said:

I doubt the BMW level of tech. Probably use the same dash they use for the Apache or the older version, which is like the older triumph with a mechanical tach next to a digital gauge. SS, you have to get your head wrapped around that they will use the tech they have, not reinvent the wheel.

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Na it's a simple equation really , some believe in God, some think aliens are amongst us, and you wont believe it, but quite a lot of Umans think that the Earth is definitely flat as a pancake. You can spend the rest of your life trying to convince them that they are wrong but your just wasting your valuable time you have left on this planet . They remind me of the Budgie in a cage talking to themselves in a mirror until it's sleep time, then when they wake up it all stars again best to ignore them and walk on by and find something more constructive to do with your precious life.

City Garage said:

So when you say "No doubt it’ll have a bit of tech onboard though," I'm curious what exactly that means? Because TVS bikes aren't known for their "tech" unless it's another manufacturer like BMW.

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We’re talking machines further down the price range here, but I would’nt be suprised if it had traction control/ABS, much like the 400 Speed Twin.

This is TVS building bikes alongside/and for another marque, like they do for BMW - so maybe less about what TVS are known for maybe?

For those wondering about the common usage TVS 450 engine, BMW F450GS this was the concept bike at last years Eicma with a guy from BMW an Chris Northover talking about it,

310 is very much the old platform an was underspecc’d compared to other bikes on the Market in class, although the bikes rally raid made transformed it.

(I’ve had most of the small capacity and large capacity adv bikes an a lot of superbikes an a ex iom tt race bike) for me even though next year I could buy any motorcycle I fancy next year budget wise it’s this end of the market that’s re ignited my passion for riding small cc doesn’t have to mean low budget or low spec, heck my 450 Himmy does 90+ mpg, has 40 hp, decent torque will carry tons of stuff is water cooled showa forks tubeless tft and fly by wire an strangely for a single one of the smoothest bikes I’ve ridden at certain rev ranges (coming from a former multiple gsa owner) so itl be super interesting to see what this new twin is like and what TVS’s take is on it.



One that’s on my radar for next year when the 1927 Nortons sold to buy dad to sit alongside the 450 Himalayan (had 5 other BMW’s an had 4 Nortons) so itl be interesting to see TVS Nortons take on the 450 platform if they utilise the same engine, an tread down the adv path once the dust settles should be interesting to see what comes out, this year. Hopefully we see something this time round.

If I was to buy something exotic next year I would probably get a Ducati Desert X but I’m having so much fun with the smaller CC bikes I’m sticking to them, my 1927 Norton really transformed my love for small cc bikes and singles an soon the WD16h Norton single which is gonna be my only Norton itl be interesting to see just how much more premium Norton make a 450 platform, if you think about it a majority of younger riders are restricted to smaller cc bikes, older riders can struggle with big heavyweight bikes or superbikes like my dad does now since his cancer. So the adv and modern classic market can make a lot of sense for lots.

There does seem to be appetite for it from others my age I’m speaking to i keep hearing about Aprilia happenings as well,

Sounds interesting the BMW / TVS 450 as it’s a never used before firing order that’s scheduled for a 2026 release so I’m hearing!

A lot of companies use common engines now look at Yamaha an the CP2 platform an how long that’s been used.

Makes a lot of sense if tvs can get a few different bikes out of it, sports bike, sports special, adv, modern classic maybe the 450 class is very flexible for usage cases.

Itl be interesting to see how much BMW dna it has as they tend to approach the bikes in a base then spec it to the sky is the limit,

Of course the other advantage of common engines is that they get more rigorous testing and fault resolution; the Ford premise that if you are going to sell in huge numbers the last thig you need is huge recalls so you make sure it's right. And of course there is the bane of a 961 owner's life the benefit of spares availability. For example a BMW Mini owner can buy cheaper engine parts from Peugeot.....

TVS also make one of the BMW scoots and I think that has some tech on it. Considering even with tariffs the BSA Bantam seems to be getting good pre-orders states side I very much suspect that TVS in Solihull are all over this and know full well what they need to compete with and the price point they need to retail at this popular mid capacity sector. Considering that they have had 5 years learning what they should not build, the same time watching others be successful in that sector, so I really hope they have done their homework and build a bike that appeals to wide customer base.

TonyA said:

I would like to see a Norton twin like the Triumph Speed twin 1200 . That kind of power and torque etc..

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I think that would be fantastic.
My first uncontrollable urge would to be to buy one. No sales staff required.
Although, I suggested a similar idea previously.
Silly dreamer me.

They aint gonna let the Commando name die are they?

Madnorton said:

TVS also make one of the BMW scoots and I think that has some tech on it. Considering even with tariffs the BSA Bantam seems to be getting good pre-orders states side I very much suspect that TVS in Solihull are all over this and know full well what they need to compete with and the price point they need to retail at this popular mid capacity sector. Considering that they have had 5 years learning what they should not build, the same time watching others be successful in that sector, so I really hope they have done their homework and build a bike that appeals to wide customer base.

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This has kind of been the point all along...which is why the 961 was just a placeholder, as is the V4. TVS knows the small to mid CC market as well as Bajaj; it's just a name recognition issue. Nobody knew Bajaj Auto before they took over KTM, so now they have instant name recognition. TVS is trying that with Norton, and as said previously, who is Norton outside of the UK? That's a big hurdle, no matter if the new motorcycles are the second coming. That plus competition from everywhere and everyone. Kove is coming out with 400cc bikes, CF Moto already has 450cc bikes, and more to come. I think they have one more chance to make a dent in the market under the Norton name, then it won't matter after that.

City Garage said:

This has kind of been the point all along...which is why the 961 was just a placeholder, as is the V4. TVS knows the small to mid CC market as well as Bajaj; it's just a name recognition issue. Nobody knew Bajaj Auto before they took over KTM, so now they have instant name recognition. TVS is trying that with Norton, and as said previously, who is Norton outside of the UK? That's a big hurdle, no matter if the new motorcycles are the second coming. That plus competition from everywhere and everyone. Kove is coming out with 400cc bikes, CF Moto already has 450cc bikes, and more to come. I think they have one more chance to make a dent in the market under the Norton name, then it won't matter after that.

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Slightly different take for me CG. Think TVS is looking to elevate Norton as a global premium brand - as opposed to using Norton as a vehicle to elevate the TVS brand (which would be a welcome outcome of course and likely part of the plan). Whilst also taking full advantage of the recent UK/India free trade agreement.

TVS is known for mass produced smaller capacity motorcycles - seen as lower quality/budget by many I suspect (rightly or wrongly), despite working with BMW. Difficult for Indian manufacturers to shake quality concerns.

They’ll hope Norton will be a delineator for quality, using the brand recognition of Norton as the vehicle to enter the global market; don’t think characterising Norton as unknown outside of the UK is entirely accurate.

The USA might be a difficult nut to crack but Royal Enfield did it successfully. So why not Norton?

City Garage said:

This has kind of been the point all along...which is why the 961 was just a placeholder, as is the V4. TVS knows the small to mid CC market as well as Bajaj; it's just a name recognition issue. Nobody knew Bajaj Auto before they took over KTM, so now they have instant name recognition. TVS is trying that with Norton, and as said previously, who is Norton outside of the UK? That's a big hurdle, no matter if the new motorcycles are the second coming. That plus competition from everywhere and everyone. Kove is coming out with 400cc bikes, CF Moto already has 450cc bikes, and more to come. I think they have one more chance to make a dent in the market under the Norton name, then it won't matter after that.

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Who is Norton outside the UK market? this might apply today but for two decades this was certainly not the case. The factory records and shipping records show in the '60s and 70s that 90-95 out of every 100 bikes made were shipped abroad with most going to North America.
TVS used to build for Suzuki, but to say they knew the mid cc sector is not quite correct, up until they took over the Norton name most of their product was sold into depressed markets as well as their home market where a large capacity bike is for us a mid capacity bike, the old and new RE and the later TVS Apache were considered the top end capacity.
The competition from the Chinese manufacturers is very strong, not just for them but all other motorcycle manufacturers, the quality improves in massive leaps, unsurprising in reality as these Chinese companies used to and still do make make many models for the big names.

Stephen_Spencer said:

Slightly different take for me CG. Think TVS is looking to elevate Norton as a global premium brand - as opposed to using Norton as a vehicle to elevate the TVS brand (which would be a welcome outcome of course and likely part of the plan). Whilst also taking full advantage of the recent UK/India free trade agreement.

TVS is known for mass produced smaller capacity motorcycles - seen as lower quality/budget by many I suspect (rightly or wrongly), despite working with BMW. Difficult for Indian manufacturers to shake quality concerns.

They’ll hope Norton will be a delineator for quality, using the brand recognition of Norton as the vehicle to enter the global market; don’t think characterising Norton as unknown outside of the UK is entirely accurate.

The USA might be a difficult nut to crack but Royal Enfield did it successfully. So why not Norton?

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Royal Enfield selling 3500 bikes or fewer a year isn't "successful" in the USA. TVS can't pull a BMW (auto side of the business). You can't claim to sell premium, then bring out the series 1 and 2 crap they tried to pawn off on people as a "luxury or premium" brand. Doing so just delutes your name, as they found out. That's why you have Toyota-Lexus Nissan-Iffinity, etc, etc. You need to pick one. You're either premium or you're not. The market just doesn't allow for it. If it did, you would see a cheap Ducati or MV

I do see your point, though, but being involved in the USA market, I have a different perspective.

Madnorton said:

Who is Norton outside the UK market? this might apply today but for two decades this was certainly not the case. The factory records and shipping records show in the '60s and 70s that 90-95 out of every 100 bikes made were shipped abroad with most going to North America.
TVS used to build for Suzuki, but to say they knew the mid cc sector is not quite correct, up until they took over the Norton name most of their product was sold into depressed markets as well as their home market where a large capacity bike is for us a mid capacity bike, the old and new RE and the later TVS Apache were considered the top end capacity.
The competition from the Chinese manufacturers is very strong, not just for them but all other motorcycle manufacturers, the quality improves in massive leaps, unsurprising in reality as these Chinese companies used to and still do make make many models for the big names.

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You can't conflate the past and present. This topic has been hashed out before. The target market for Norton in the USA doesn't know the name. Anyone else who knows the name is aging out of motorcycling. Just look at the average age of the Commando forum members, and thats what you get here. Older people might know the name, but that's not the buyer here. Also, this forum has (both modern and early) about 1000 members. Not a big number in the scheme of things for a "brand".

It's going to take a lot to re-enter the US market. And until the bikes start showing up in the CARB roles for testing and approval, no one should hold their breath; new models are not expected to arrive in the USA anytime soon. And with more dealerships closing/downsizing than opening, no trade shows or other events that would be a good stepping stone, it's a tough hill to climb. Also, any time an article is done in the USA press, somewhere in it, it's going to say, "hey, they tried this before and failed in 1975," and "in the late 80's " "then tried again in the mid-2010s and failed again." Then the first bike TVS reproduced had recalls and low sales, so now they are trying a mid CC bike.

When you say the quiet part out loud, it all makes sense.

I'm not the optimist that Stephen is, but I do want to see motorcycling in general make a comeback. Unfortunately, too many parents have told their kids it's dangerous, resulting in a couple of decades' gap in new riders. Everyone else wants an SXS when you could buy four motorcycles for what some of them cost.

Madnorton said:

Who is Norton outside the UK market? this might apply today but for two decades this was certainly not the case. The factory records and shipping records show in the '60s and 70s that 90-95 out of every 100 bikes made were shipped abroad with most going to North America.
TVS used to build for Suzuki, but to say they knew the mid cc sector is not quite correct, up until they took over the Norton name most of their product was sold into depressed markets as well as their home market where a large capacity bike is for us a mid capacity bike, the old and new RE and the later TVS Apache were considered the top end capacity.
The competition from the Chinese manufacturers is very strong, not just for them but all other motorcycle manufacturers, the quality improves in massive leaps, unsurprising in reality as these Chinese companies used to and still do make make many models for the big names.

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How are you going to compare Norton of the 60a and 70s to that of today Norton? You can’t, especially in the USA market.
I can almost guarantee you that anyone who’s into motorcycles here in the USA, under the age of 20,30,40 and maybe even 50, never even heard of Norton, and if they did, they don’t know anything about them even being in business today.

How do I know this, I’m 54 and have attended battle of the Brits shows, cafe racer shows and other bike night meets and when I had my Nortons there, old timers talked about owning or knowing of Nortons of the 50-70s but the younger crowd, never even heard of them.

No young person here wants a small cc bike unless it’s a Honda Grom. I don’t see anything from TVS or anything that resembles anything along those lines. It’s either Harley or Japanese and some small group of Ducati, BMW, and even smaller Triumph group. This is in the Detroit area.

I know the USA market isn’t what it once was, but either is anywhere else in the world. I don’t ever see TVS Norton ever being as popular, productive or know as they once were. My opinion