limitation

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This is not for the sake of typing, But a real interest in the Commando engine limitations..
I would like to know what limits the RPM ...ie i guess to start with its the crank im-balance...after that what case flex....breathing . piston speed or valve float ..hypo questons to many i guess , but there is guys on here that have a good idea .. if the crank/case was NOT a issue could a 750 rev out to 9000 or more?

what modern 360 degree 750 twin with a balanced crank rev to? What is the limiting factor to the race engines? or drag racers.?
 
Piston speed is going to become an issue very quickly once you go beyond 7000 rpm with a 89mm stroke and lowish con rod ratio.
 
Historically shorty after 7000 rpm it was crank shaft flex fracturing itself &/or flywheel then its support bearings then the cases then valve float through piston tops. If still alive after 8-9 grand then the alternator can collide with the stator and the cam chain can jerk the snout off the oil pump. This ignores the manufacturing & correctable-corrected faults of Combat's early bearings and case hole boreing and contract breaker bouncing to mis fire. We all remember what happened when Norton got bought out and moved from original home that was bombed in WWII so a long vital wood level got left behind in the move. Nowadays with non Norton items - Crank shaft flex is the biggest boogaboo.
 
Steve ...i bet this info is from first hand experiance :?:

hobot said:
Historically shorty after 7000 rpm it was crank shaft flex fracturing itself &/or flywheel then its support bearings then the cases then valve float through piston tops. If still alive after 8-9 grand then the alternator can collide with the stator and the cam chain can jerk the snout off the oil pump. This ignores the manufacturing & correctable-corrected faults of Combat's early bearings and case hole boreing and contract breaker bouncing to mis fire. We all remember what happened when Norton got bought out and moved from original home that was bombed in WWII so a long vital wood level got left behind in the move. Nowadays with non Norton items - Crank shaft flex is the biggest boogaboo.
 
It relates to reciprocating weight. If your talking about stock parts you have one set of limitations which are more or less established at around 7000 to maybe 7500 RPM. If you're talking about lighter parts then you have higher limitations. I and a few others have revved into the 8000+ RPM range using lightweight pistons, BSA cam followers & beehive springs without short term problems. But when racers frequently visit the 7500 - 8000+ RPM range they see too much cylinder bore wear that requires hardening of the bore surface to correct. Soft cast iron is just not up to todays standards and needs the carbide Bore tech treatment for high RPM. Crank flex is reduced with nitrided one piece cranks and the crank journals benefit from the harder nitrided surface. Thicker cases go along with the one piece crank. Titanium valves also help to prevent valve float. So if you're talking about an all out top of the line racing motor with all the lightweight reciprocating parts and heavy duty bottom end (preferably short stroke), then maybe you can get away with 8500 RPM but any extreme limit motor will be very expensive and probably need the film strength of castor R 40 oil, frequent inspection and parts replacement. Such a motor can cost $10,000 if you throw everything at it. So make our choices with your money. You can get by with some modest improvements or you can go all out - no expense spared.
 
I worry about the 850 pistons pulling the tops off the aluminium conrods. Even with steel rods, it looks like a problem to me. As the piston accelerations rise, the loads rise in a squared relationship. I have no intention of ever moving to a higher rev range, it is just asking for trouble. Everything I've done to my motor has been about fattening the midrange power. As it is, on most gear changes I see about 7,200 RPM, and I am very vigilant about not over-revving it. The problem is to my mind, that the tacho might not be responsive enough to show what is really happening. Even when the load is off, the pistons still reverse direction at the top of each stroke. This is the 'big bang theory'.
 
Would 4000 rpm or thereabouts be what you'd expect to see at 70 MPH with a 23 tooth front sprocket?
Not sure if my taco is telling the right story

Jed
 
Jed said:
Would 4000 rpm or thereabouts be what you'd expect to see at 70 MPH with a 23 tooth front sprocket?
Not sure if my taco is telling the right story

Jed

No, I think 21t is more like 70mph @ 4000rpm. 23t would be closer to 70mph @ 3500rpm.
I have the RGM belt drive and it runs 70mph @ 4000rpm with a 20t, but that runs slightly higher @ 1.96:1.
 
pete.v said:
Jed said:
Would 4000 rpm or thereabouts be what you'd expect to see at 70 MPH with a 23 tooth front sprocket?
Not sure if my taco is telling the right story

Jed

No, I think 21t is more like 70mph @ 4000rpm. 23t would be closer to 70mph @ 3500rpm.
I have the RGM belt drive and it runs 70mph @ 4000rpm with a 20t, but that runs slightly higher @ 1.96:1.[/quote

Thats interesting
I thought it was showing less revs than it was actually doing I'm pretty sure the speedo is close having tested against more modern bikes
One of the things that keeps me from taking it up to higher speeds (apart from coppers, Roos and the knowledge I built the thing) is the joining link chain
The one on it was with the bike and in good nick but I don't know the make. When I replace it with a new one of known make I will feel more confident about exploring the upper limits. But I don't think I'll take it to 7K. Thats just scary!

Jed
 
The self reports of desert and drag racers , which are on old lists and old archives forums never mentioned by anyone but me, preferred thinner 750 cases over 850 to allow cases to bow some to allow less end bearing binding and would fit ball bearing to the TS to let some the whip work out there. The old style oil comma slotted piston are a known hazard of stress riser let go. If hot swollen piston descends to lower bores that are rather cooler that upper bores pistons can hang up and stop the show as something else always lets go 1st before Norton rods. I know the crank ends toggling from shaft bowing can wipe out what's attached on either end - and - wonder how much destruction blamed on rods is actually the bow in the crank alignment of its journals putting binding expanding/splitting leverage thru the big end shells.

Next Peel's bores are wider by ~,001" in lower bores than .0055" at upper half. Peel's crank - one piece welded nitrided with lighter smaller flywheel JSMs rods/pistons and > all cryo'd plus dry anti-friction coated pistons and Bore Tech'd - cost about $1000 more in treatments.

The standard size valves in the K/W Black Diamond 6mm stem type and spring kit as once sold by Kenny Deer and essentially off the shelf now have no known upper rpm range as Peel tested them way beyond what our tachs can measure, did 2000 miles further and being used as is again in Next Peel after intimate exam and handling by Ken Canaga. I did have the kit cryo tempered for same reasons rotary Nortons would never have existed otherwise.

You can't cryo the head w/o squeezing out the steel valve seats so reminder NOT to have cryo done to items with dissimilar alloys attached. I fully believe if I had sense to leave throttle at WOT and only held and held and held the speed shift kill 'button' down I'd only had to replace alternator and everything in TS that was not cryo'd prior and slapped on the Drouin & making road history by now. Imagine Kenny Commings on his teeth gritting dyno runs breaking a chain with throttle locked at WOT and the rev up acceleration after 9 grand was so harsh a hit it knocked his hands off bar by the extra hard engine rise on front iso to throw him out the saddle so it had a couple seconds to top out... If you snap throttle shut in normal red zone limit - it takes about 2 sec to spin to a stop yet Peel's tach needle didn't even slow down to be visible in 2 sec so took more than 2 to begin to see tach needle bouncing in a blur off back side of peg and then a few more seconds ROAR to see it stop then .5 sec for the drumming of shed tin walls and roof to stop echoing then about 30 sec for smoke to clear enough to see hazy profile of top of engine still there even with me trying to blow it clear enough to see. While I was trying to regain feel after slapped back on 2nd breath of rev up -beyond red zone- with over sized Combat ports doing their thing, every seam and fashioner stretched so much they opened with mis-matched resonance it looked like ocean breakers on a beach spraying out oil in varying places in cycles. If not for my yogic and mind control with electronically assisted psychedelic use and hand full of near death experience of trauma flashing back just then my interval of time perception would not have allowed registering this painful scenario.

Peel's old Combat cases were the preferred choice of ancient drag racers upgraded by their advice on where to find and fix stress risers below the visible surface, mounting flange flats to the horizontal splitting preventing plates behind barrel case bolt holes that allows an 11th clamp bolt installed. I also had Peel's alloy cases cyro'd too, which w/o PhD level exams in solid sate physics like me, may be reflexly poo-pooped as waste of processing. Resonance and strain density matters in crystalline matrix among random particle grain interfaces.

Sir Eddie details for 11 grand salt runner are educational with cryo'd parts used through out.
 
hobot said:
The self reports of desert and drag racers , which are on old lists and old archives forums never mentioned by anyone but me, preferred thinner 750 cases over 850 to allow cases to bow some to allow less end bearing binding and would fit ball bearing to the TS to let some the whip work out there. The old style oil comma slotted piston are a known hazard of stress riser let go. If hot swollen piston descends to lower bores that are rather cooler that upper bores pistons can hang up and stop the show as something else always lets go 1st before Norton rods. I know the crank ends toggling from shaft bowing can wipe out what's attached on either end - and - wonder how much destruction blamed on rods is actually the bow in the crank alignment of its journals putting binding expanding/splitting leverage thru the big end shells.

Next Peel's bores are wider by ~,001" in lower bores than .0055" at upper half. Peel's crank - one piece welded nitrided with lighter smaller flywheel JSMs rods/pistons and > all cryo'd plus dry anti-friction coated pistons and Bore Tech'd - cost about $1000 more in treatments.

The standard size valves in the K/W Black Diamond 6mm stem type and spring kit as once sold by Kenny Deer and essentially off the shelf now have no known upper rpm range as Peel tested them way beyond what our tachs can measure, did 2000 miles further and being used as is again in Next Peel after intimate exam and handling by Ken Canaga. I did have the kit cryo tempered for same reasons rotary Nortons would never have existed otherwise.

You can't cryo the head w/o squeezing out the steel valve seats so reminder NOT to have cryo done to items with dissimilar alloys attached. I fully believe if I had sense to leave throttle at WOT and only held and held and held the speed shift kill 'button' down I'd only had to replace alternator and everything in TS that was not cryo'd prior and slapped on the Drouin & making road history by now. Imagine Kenny Commings on his teeth gritting dyno runs breaking a chain with throttle locked at WOT and the rev up acceleration after 9 grand was so harsh a hit it knocked his hands off bar by the extra hard engine rise on front iso to throw him out the saddle so it had a couple seconds to top out... If you snap throttle shut in normal red zone limit - it takes about 2 sec to spin to a stop yet Peel's tach needle didn't even slow down to be visible in 2 sec so took more than 2 to begin to see tach needle bouncing in a blur off back side of peg and then a few more seconds ROAR to see it stop then .5 sec for the drumming of shed tin walls and roof to stop echoing then about 30 sec for smoke to clear enough to see hazy profile of top of engine still there even with me trying to blow it clear enough to see. While I was trying to regain feel after slapped back on 2nd breath of rev up -beyond red zone- with over sized Combat ports doing their thing, every seam and fashioner stretched so much they opened with mis-matched resonance it looked like ocean breakers on a beach spraying out oil in varying places in cycles. If not for my yogic and mind control with electronically assisted psychedelic use and hand full of near death experience of trauma flashing back just then my interval of time perception would not have allowed registering this painful scenario.

Peel's old Combat cases were the preferred choice of ancient drag racers upgraded by their advice on where to find and fix stress risers below the visible surface, mounting flange flats to the horizontal splitting preventing plates behind barrel case bolt holes that allows an 11th clamp bolt installed. I also had Peel's alloy cases cyro'd too, which w/o PhD level exams in solid sate physics like me, may be reflexly poo-pooped as waste of processing. Resonance and strain density matters in crystalline matrix among random particle grain interfaces.

Sir Eddie details for 11 grand salt runner are educational with cryo'd parts used through out.

What?
 
pete.v said:
hobot said:
The self reports of desert and drag racers , which are on old lists and old archives forums never mentioned by anyone but me, preferred thinner

Sir Eddie details for 11 grand salt runner are educational with cryo'd parts used through out.

What?

I think he's saying you can do stuff to the motor to extract more RPM - but I'm not certain
 
pete.v said:
hobot said:
The self reports of desert and drag racers , which are on old lists and old archives forums never mentioned by anyone but me, preferred thinner 750 cases over 850 to allow cases to bow some to allow less end bearing binding and would fit ball bearing to the TS to let some the whip work out there. The old style oil comma slotted piston are a known hazard of stress riser let go. If hot swollen piston descends to lower bores that are rather cooler that upper bores pistons can hang up and stop the show as something else always lets go 1st before Norton rods. I know the crank ends toggling from shaft bowing can wipe out what's attached on either end - and - wonder how much destruction blamed on rods is actually the bow in the crank alignment of its journals putting binding expanding/splitting leverage thru the big end shells.

Next Peel's bores are wider by ~,001" in lower bores than .0055" at upper half. Peel's crank - one piece welded nitrided with lighter smaller flywheel JSMs rods/pistons and > all cryo'd plus dry anti-friction coated pistons and Bore Tech'd - cost about $1000 more in treatments.

The standard size valves in the K/W Black Diamond 6mm stem type and spring kit as once sold by Kenny Deer and essentially off the shelf now have no known upper rpm range as Peel tested them way beyond what our tachs can measure, did 2000 miles further and being used as is again in Next Peel after intimate exam and handling by Ken Canaga. I did have the kit cryo tempered for same reasons rotary Nortons would never have existed otherwise.

You can't cryo the head w/o squeezing out the steel valve seats so reminder NOT to have cryo done to items with dissimilar alloys attached. I fully believe if I had sense to leave throttle at WOT and only held and held and held the speed shift kill 'button' down I'd only had to replace alternator and everything in TS that was not cryo'd prior and slapped on the Drouin & making road history by now. Imagine Kenny Commings on his teeth gritting dyno runs breaking a chain with throttle locked at WOT and the rev up acceleration after 9 grand was so harsh a hit it knocked his hands off bar by the extra hard engine rise on front iso to throw him out the saddle so it had a couple seconds to top out... If you snap throttle shut in normal red zone limit - it takes about 2 sec to spin to a stop yet Peel's tach needle didn't even slow down to be visible in 2 sec so took more than 2 to begin to see tach needle bouncing in a blur off back side of peg and then a few more seconds ROAR to see it stop then .5 sec for the drumming of shed tin walls and roof to stop echoing then about 30 sec for smoke to clear enough to see hazy profile of top of engine still there even with me trying to blow it clear enough to see. While I was trying to regain feel after slapped back on 2nd breath of rev up -beyond red zone- with over sized Combat ports doing their thing, every seam and fashioner stretched so much they opened with mis-matched resonance it looked like ocean breakers on a beach spraying out oil in varying places in cycles. If not for my yogic and mind control with electronically assisted psychedelic use and hand full of near death experience of trauma flashing back just then my interval of time perception would not have allowed registering this painful scenario.

Peel's old Combat cases were the preferred choice of ancient drag racers upgraded by their advice on where to find and fix stress risers below the visible surface, mounting flange flats to the horizontal splitting preventing plates behind barrel case bolt holes that allows an 11th clamp bolt installed. I also had Peel's alloy cases cyro'd too, which w/o PhD level exams in solid sate physics like me, may be reflexly poo-pooped as waste of processing. Resonance and strain density matters in crystalline matrix among random particle grain interfaces.

Sir Eddie details for 11 grand salt runner are educational with cryo'd parts used through out.

What?

Unbelievable, literally........
 
olChris said:
To the DT's out there re Hobit's post, just read and research the last line...

I don't think they are using a 750 or a 89 mm stroke. (6416 ft/minute piston speed )
183 crankshaft revolutions per second.

Much more enjoyable to have a reliable torquey Commando and wave to the cows on country jaunts.
 
Time Warp said:
olChris said:
To the DT's out there re Hobit's post, just read and research the last line...

I don't think they are using a 750 or a 89 mm stroke. (6416 ft/minute piston speed )
183 crankshaft revolutions per second.

Much more enjoyable to have a reliable torquey Commando and wave to the cows on country jaunts.

I'm with you. A thick meaty low end and mid range are what Commandos are all about.
 
That is not to say people shouldn't push the envelope, its only time and money.
For the street of course, building a unusable rev range ceiling defeats the purpose somewhat unless there is a sizable increase in mid range to go with it.
Perhaps offset pin crankshafts for better primary balance combined with light rotating parts might help but at the expense of anything Commando.
I would rather use 50 horsepower at 5000 rpm than 80 at 8000 on a road bike, I think once you have a taste for 'grunt you want more of the same, ride the torque curve.
 
If ya too old and wise to enjoy 80 hp 8000 rpm in public through lower gears then there's no incentive to advance our power craft or keep specialty vendor builders in business. Next Peel will have is a rpm limiter though not sure what to set it at yet.
 
I guess you could take this question two ways. One would be all about the mechanical limits and which parts break at higher rpm. The simplistic answer to that one is that you can certainly rev a standard stroke 750 to 9000 rpm with the right valve train, and it might even hold up a while if you've got upgraded cases, cranks, rods, etc. But it isn't going to last long. And that leads to the second interpretation of the question. If you're asking whether you can rev it that high to get more performance, the answer is pretty much no. All the 89 mm stroke dyno charts I've seen for race engines, whether 750 or 920, have the horsepower peak somewhere around 7000 rpm (6500 - 7500?), and most of them closer to 6800 rpm. Above that the horsepower starts to drop off, and somewhere around 8000 rpm it really starts to drop like a rock, if you're brave enough to rev it that high on a dyno. I think comnoz has the answer, when he says it is friction in the cylinder bore that is the limiting factor. Except for over-run on the track to avoid a shift or to stay in the power band with a wide ratio gearbox, there's really no reason to try to rev the engine much higher than its max horsepower point. If you find yourself revving to 8000 in top gear, it's really, really, time to change gearing.

Ken
 
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