Keepin up with pete.

comnoz · Aug 10, 2014

So now the next project is going to be to fix the dyno.

My ignition system is a bit on the hot side. I pulled a plug wire back to check the spark and forgot to turn off the dyno computers. The EFI from the high frequency spark scrambled the dyno control computer and my tuning computers. I got the tuning computer back but the dyno computer no longer reads the weather station so the correction factor is way off.

Here is a short video of a single spark at hand cranking speed. I used a pair of vinyl pliers and pulled the plug cap at idle to cause the damage. It will jump a gap of over 3 inches and if there is nowhere to go the spark will exit the side of the ignition coil. When the gap gets big the RFI gets really high.

[video]http://youtu.be/kJnROeYrQTc[/video]

So after entering all the correction factors manually I ended up with a nice little gain of 1.5 horse at 4200 and 3.56 horse at 6400 over the big single body. The power peak was 74 horse at 6400. I will take that. Jim

Fast Eddie · Aug 10, 2014

comnoz said:
So the dyno results are in. Peak SAE horsepower at 6450 came out at 145.3 HP. OH BABY.

Ken just as well leave his bike at home as I am going to go get the Bonneville record. Jim

Is this a typo Jim...? It looks like you've written 145.3 HP...!

Or should the post be moved to the none Commando page cos you're actually talking about your GSXR...!?!

comnoz · Aug 10, 2014

Fast Eddie said:
comnoz said:

So the dyno results are in. Peak SAE horsepower at 6450 came out at 145.3 HP. OH BABY.

Ken just as well leave his bike at home as I am going to go get the Bonneville record. Jim

Click to expand...

Is this a typo Jim...? It looks like you've written 145.3 HP...!

Or should the post be moved to the none Commando page cos you're actually talking about your GSXR...!?!

That was actually my Norton.
Definitely completely bogus readings.
It looks like my dyno control is going to have to go back to Superflow for reloading the firmware and recalibrate. :x

SteveA · Aug 10, 2014

Fast Eddie said:
comnoz said:

So the dyno results are in. Peak SAE horsepower at 6450 came out at 145.3 HP. OH BABY.

Ken just as well leave his bike at home as I am going to go get the Bonneville record. Jim

Click to expand...

Is this a typo Jim...? It looks like you've written 145.3 HP...!

Or should the post be moved to the none Commando page cos you're actually talking about your GSXR...!?!

At that engine speed my GSXR 750 SRAD felt like it made no horsepower at all....... ;-)

Whitworth Ranch · Aug 10, 2014

comnoz said:
Whitworth Ranch said:

Where are the injectors aimed?

Click to expand...

The injectors are aimed across the port at the port floor just inboard of the flange. I have played with that a lot. When I aim them at the backside of the valve I end up with a lot of liquid fuel in the cylinder. The injectors are 4 hole injectors so they put out 4 fine sprays but they seem to do best if they have a bit of time to evaporate the fuel before it gets to the cylinder. They actually provide the best mixture if they are aimed at the throttle plate from the air cleaner side. But then starting gets harder and low speed response is not as good .

Staged injectors would be best and the ECM will handle that but they add a lot of complexity. Maybe someday I will add two more injectors inside the air cleaner for the best of both worlds. Jim

Ducati was a big fan of showerheads for top end a number of years ago now on its superbikes. They ran four injectors, two up close and two way out there shooting to the butterflies and giving time for good fuel evaporation at high intake velocity.

Freedom from signal is nice.

acotrel · Aug 11, 2014

My friend who owns Motec told me that back in the 70s, they fitted an injector into each carb bellmouth of a Honda four, started the motor then turned off the fuel to the carbs, so the bike ran on the injectors. Picked up a second per lap on a British race circuit. I suspect it was the bike that Ditchburn rode at Mallory against Hailwood in about '79

comnoz · Aug 11, 2014

Well I should have known it wouldn't be that easy.

Took the bike for a run to pick up parts [no air filters yet]

It ran the best it has run in it's life. Smooth throttle response with a little extra power -nice.

The I shut it off for 20 minutes and when I came back it started right up but would barely run.

The fuel rail and injectors picked up too much heat due to the fact they are very close to the head. The hot fuel is less dense so the mixture was very lean until I could get moving again for long enough to cool things down which took several miles.

No simple fix -back to the drawing board. Jim

Hobot · Aug 11, 2014

So refreshing to hear about the stamina involved to trial and error a new Norton novelty. But now you given us a taste of the EI teaser we await the final success story.

xbacksideslider · Aug 11, 2014

My '08 CBR1000RR has a shower injector in the top of the airbox which only turns on at the big end.

I suspect that it's function is NOT to add fuel but to to cool the intake air charge temperature by way of a greater distance and time for atomization and evaporation.

Hobot · Aug 11, 2014

I suspect that it's function is NOT to add fuel but to to cool the intake air charge temperature by way of a greater distance and time for atomization and evaporation.

Yep that a big reason for this location, denser mixture plus anti-detonation cooling or combustion surfaces by enrichment. Alas can only enrich so much before also stifle power burn. Peel may get methanol spray at impeller intake to increase impeller efficiency/density and add oxygenation too. No impeller ablation risk with the methanol flashing to vapor instead of water droplets hits.

comnoz · Aug 11, 2014

xbacksideslider said:
My '08 CBR1000RR has a shower injector in the top of the airbox which only turns on at the big end.

I suspect that it's function is NOT to add fuel but to to cool the intake air charge temperature by way of a greater distance and time for atomization and evaporation.

Yes I have looked at that idea, and since I am going to have to do some redesign anyway.....

acotrel · Aug 12, 2014

hobot said:
I suspect that it's function is NOT to add fuel but to to cool the intake air charge temperature by way of a greater distance and time for atomization and evaporation.

Click to expand...

Yep that a big reason for this location, denser mixture plus anti-detonation cooling or combustion surfaces by enrichment. Alas can only enrich so much before also stifle power burn. Peel may get methanol spray at impeller intake to increase impeller efficiency/density and add oxygenation too. No impeller ablation risk with the methanol flashing to vapor instead of water droplets hits.

Probably ethanol (methylated spirits) injection would be sufficient, much cheaper and if you get thirsty you might be able to run a pipe up into your helmet

Cheesy · Aug 12, 2014

comnoz said:
Well I should have known it wouldn't be that easy.

Took the bike for a run to pick up parts [no air filters yet]

It ran the best it has run in it's life. Smooth throttle response with a little extra power -nice.

The I shut it off for 20 minutes and when I came back it started right up but would barely run.

The fuel rail and injectors picked up too much heat due to the fact they are very close to the head. The hot fuel is less dense so the mixture was very lean until I could get moving again for long enough to cool things down which took several miles.

No simple fix -back to the drawing board. Jim

How about running a return from the fuel rail to the tank and a separate regulator? that might help to keep the fuel cooler. Im assuming you have a dead end system from the pictures.

Nortiboy · Aug 12, 2014

Cheesy said:
How about running a return from the fuel rail to the tank and a separate regulator? that might help to keep the fuel cooler. Im assuming you have a dead end system from the pictures.

+1

Plenty of engines use fuel as a coolant. Maybe a simple timed poppet valve and return line to allow the system to purge with fresh fuel for hot start may help.

xbacksideslider · Aug 12, 2014

hobot said:
I suspect that it's function is NOT to add fuel but to to cool the intake air charge temperature by way of a greater distance and time for atomization and evaporation.

Click to expand...

Yep that a big reason for this location, denser mixture plus anti-detonation cooling or combustion surfaces by enrichment. Alas can only enrich so much before also stifle power burn. Peel may get methanol spray at impeller intake to increase impeller efficiency/density and add oxygenation too. No impeller ablation risk with the methanol flashing to vapor instead of water droplets hits.

Check out the "Pre-Compressor Sprayer" - about two thirds down this page -
http://howertonengineering.com/howerton ... ist-items/

Installing one in a turbo Dodge right now.

comnoz · Aug 12, 2014

Cheesy said:
How about running a return from the fuel rail to the tank and a separate regulator? that might help to keep the fuel cooler. Im assuming you have a dead end system from the pictures.

Yes, It was a dead end system. This is still the original fuel injection supply I build many years ago before I knew better. Actually it worked very well as long as the rail and injectors were kept out of the heat.

I am working on parts for a new system that will circulate fuel through the rail and since that is going to require quite a bit of redesign I will likely be going ahead with a 4 injector system. Jim

Nater_Potater · Aug 12, 2014

comnoz said:
So the dyno results are in. Peak SAE horsepower at 6450 came out at 145.3 HP. OH BABY.

and then

Definitely completely bogus readings.
It looks like my dyno control is going to have to go back to Superflow for reloading the firmware and recalibrate. :x

Great! You're just like some sick, twisted drug pusher! I was getting ready to hook the mill out of the old girl and send it your way with a blank signed check. I hate you! :wink:

'Sorry to hear you fried your dyno. I hope it's not too expensive of a repair.

Nathan

acotrel · Aug 12, 2014

74 BHP out of an old British vertical twin is enough for anyone to do themselves a mischief with. If you think about it an H1R Kawasaki racer in the 70s was rated at 80 BHP and had very little torque. A 74 BHP commando in the right hands would give it a fright.

comnoz · Aug 12, 2014

Nater_Potater said:
'Sorry to hear you fried your dyno. I hope it's not too expensive of a repair.

Nathan

Actually I found the corrupted files and can fix them. Then the dyno works fine -until I shut it down. When I fire it up again it loads the corrupted files again from flash memory and then I have to fix it again. So I guess I will just never shut it down unless I can figure out how to make it load the files from somewhere else.
I don't think you can walk out of Superflow with a bill of less than about 1500.00+ They will not even talk to you on the phone without getting your credit card number first. Jim

comnoz · Aug 12, 2014

Sure is neat what a CNC machine and a couple chunks of magnesium can make in a very short time.

Now when the air filter gets here I can install the injectors through the rear cover and remove the extra metal from the front plate. Jim

Keepin up with pete.

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