Keepin up with pete.

swooshdave said:

http://www.pattonmachine.com/TBI-Main.htm

An interesting approach from the car guys.

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If you have everything optimised correctly using an EMS, if the bike is ridden near the limit surely the performance must be better than without the computerised system ? Every time you ride a bike, the weather changes - how do you keep up with that ? If you are racing, you might re-jet. I'm too lazy to bother, I just ride a bit harder especially in the rain.

When Holly 1st came out with TBI bolt on 'carb' I put a two barrel injector instead of the double pumper Quadrajet on my 4800 lb 400cid V8 cargo van and got such good power respond i took up chasing Porsches on Houston freeways 120 mph van got aero unstable so let em go. 1978 chevy van's like mine were the fastest production vehicle that year in USA so had a good baseline performance. JIm will be grinning ear to ear.

Jim, with a 40mm TBI, how much taper do you have in the manifold and ports ?

lcrken said:

Nice system, Jim.

I can understand the reluctance to try marketing it. Besides the learning curve, it would have to be pretty pricey. I looked at putting together a system using two Jenvey throttle bodies, and the cost for the bodies, injectors, fuel rail, pressure regulator, linkage, TBS, and stacks or filter adapaters was $1250. And then I would have to develop an engine management system to run it, probably Megasquiret/microsquirt, plus appropriate sensors and triggers. I think it would have cost me something like $2000 minimum, and probably more, plus a lot of man hours. Then I'd have to pay for dyno time to get it set up right. Call the total $2500 if I'm lucky.

Also looked at Hilborn, but their motorcycle EFI systems start around $5000.

I have been looking to see if I could somehow adapt throttle bodies from a modern bike, but haven't found anything yet that would let me have two bodies. The principle problem is the close spacing of the Norton intake ports.

I think I'll have to stick with carbs for a while.

But I do admire your work (and perseverance).

Ken

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there are probably many throttle bodys that could be adapted now, Triumph triple ones can be stuffed in there reasonably well a bit smaller than
Jim's though, they will fit better when the flanges are cut of and welded straight instead of at an angle. The other thing you could do to save space is mounting the injectors in the ham can (or whatever is there) so they are squirting into the the middle of the throttle body, some of the V twins do this, not so good for low end throttle response but good for wide open atomization.

acotrel said:

Jim, with a 40mm TBI, how much taper do you have in the manifold and ports ?

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The flange at the head is 32mm. The area between the flange and the throttle plate is bell shaped like a velocity stack.

It's now running and if the dyno agrees with how it sounds - I think I have a winner. It definitely revs quicker. Jim

Where are the injectors aimed?

Whitworth Ranch said:

Where are the injectors aimed?

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INWARD ! :lol: . . . :mrgreen:

Whitworth Ranch said:

Where are the injectors aimed?

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The injectors are aimed across the port at the port floor just inboard of the flange. I have played with that a lot. When I aim them at the backside of the valve I end up with a lot of liquid fuel in the cylinder. The injectors are 4 hole injectors so they put out 4 fine sprays but they seem to do best if they have a bit of time to evaporate the fuel before it gets to the cylinder. They actually provide the best mixture if they are aimed at the throttle plate from the air cleaner side. But then starting gets harder and low speed response is not as good .

Staged injectors would be best and the ECM will handle that but they add a lot of complexity. Maybe someday I will add two more injectors inside the air cleaner for the best of both worlds. Jim

Hm Jim your report implies you've a spare single injector with 175 hp feed capacity that may be able to fit Peel spaces I've build into a tight induction corner. No float bowel is appealing for two reasons. Poor pete and I would just have to learn to live with only one big intake throat issues.

If the injectors cause the fuel to vaporise in the manifold and port, doesn't the latent heat of vaporisation have the beneficial effect of chilling the incoming charge and creating a supercharging effect. That is how methanol works. It has a much higher latent heat of vaporisation than petrol, however vaporising petrol still contributes in a similar way.

methanol heat of vaporisation - 262.6 g-cal/g

n-octane heat of vaporisation - 70.9 g-cal/g

water heat of vaporisation 595.9 g-cal/g

hobot said:

Hm Jim your report implies you've a spare single injector with 175 hp feed capacity that may be able to fit Peel spaces I've build into a tight induction corner. No float bowel is appealing for two reasons. Poor pete and I would just have to learn to live with only one big intake throat issues.

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Feeding 175 horse with one injector is no problem. Better low speed and starting could be had by injecting at the intake ports also. Jim

Jim its so freaking hazardous to ride fast or slow in public I'm mainly thinking about the all out power potential for Peel use and not over taxing your injectors reserve flow capacity evaporating over about a foot of manifold.

Hobot,

Are you talking about 175 hp Norton Commando?

SquareHead said:

Hobot,

Are you talking about 175 hp Norton Commando?

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Hey it would sound great -for about 100ms.

Pay attention - I said nothing about a 175 hp engine - only that Jim's last injector was rated/able to supple that much mixture - so Peel would not be concerned about straining his injector/solenoid operation envelope, by at least 15 hp to spare on gasoline : ) It IS the acceleration advantage of fuel injection that piques me most, not all out max power which likely improve too though. Maybe I can talk Jim into a trial dyno run with his EI - after the Lake Injector first.

hobot said:

Pay attention - I said nothing about a 175 hp engine - only that Jim's last injector was rated/able to supple that much mixture - so Peel would not be concerned about straining his injector/solenoid operation envelope, by at least 15 hp to spare on gasoline : ) It IS the acceleration advantage of fuel injection that piques me most, not all out max power which likely improve too though. Maybe I can talk Jim into a trial dyno run with his EI - after the Lake Injector first.

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Thats a pretty big injector to try and get it to idle at all well, two smaller ones would be better, or two small ones in the ports and a big one further away from the valves. Or one or two that are sized for the engine, you can also use a rising rate regulator since you are pumping a bit of air in there too.

Ugh Cheesy I'm tired of inventing stuff on Peel so my only hope is Jim expertise on already getting his prior single throat injector working well in his prior detonation prone destroyed engine. There's many issues using carbs on draw or blow through boost applications and remains to be seen if I can get Lake Injector to work or not. Atleast the Drouin mixes mixture very well so all that tried them remark how smooth engines run and remarkably how easy to start. Part of Peel's purpose is to get her going well on mostly 40 yr old school technology. Can ya imagine my inner joy after I parked to pee and return to be unable to see Ms Peel for all the Ducati Monster riders standing and squatting around looking & arguing on the hidden the turbo after they finally arrived trying to keep up. These were mostly dentists it turned out so one would of thought they'd seen no booster by a mere glance over but gives some idea of the power Peel had on tap with a single 34 MIki car as unbelievable. After 10 min they still couldn't find one so asked me and when I said no booster involved a wave of them literally swooning and stumbled backward at the shock. As I keep saying it ain't me that's missed out on what's possible with an ole clunker Combat Cream of the Crop. Still the 34 Miki didn't pull but 6000 rpm in 4th but who'd believe me if I mentioned what the speedo showed but the strangers asked to compare with their digital speedo, set a few mph above actual ground speed d/t legal reasons. Peel may not of been a horse power wonder but by golly she was a torque monster. Torque rules the roost for turn handling power while horse power just the bee line easy stuff.

'Torque rules the roost for turn handling power while horse power just the bee line easy stuff.'

Aren't you using your bike on public roads ? Around here I would have to ride for 40 miles to find any decent twisty stuff. To me a good handling bike on our long straight roads would be an utter waste. I can relate to what you are saying if the application is road racing. Don't you have any policemen ?
What some people seem to miss, is that the joy in competitive motorcycle riding lies in outriding others in corners. Also in out-thinking them. Blasting someone off down a straight does nothing for me. And if you do that on a public road - I cannot see the sense in it.

Alan Its motorcycle paradise Ground Zero in Kingston Arkansas without a traffic light at all in 2 counties and the one that does in towns is known as Car-Roll County. Its counter productive for police to venture much out of towns or off the main hi traffic hwys and if one passed ya the other way it'd take too long for them to find a turn around area to even think of catching a hot rider that could easy pull off on some miles and miles long unpaved paths they'd likely spin right out on trying to go very fast on. On Peel i've had half dozen encounters with police pointing a warning finger at me which I nodded back but didn't let up. I have practices on the worse areas my 3 speed of motivation, in spirited hurry to get some where, racing-flat tracker style fun and thrills and police chase speed in that order to know ahead of time what I can and can't get away with- depending on situation. I will put removal-able plastic dip coloring on Peel so not shot at on sight. Watch Ghost rider as that's what I did on my P!! in state capitol city though only up to about 140 as vibed so much and couldn't lean to turn. Told P!! would hit ~150 in straights but never hung on to find out and race bike have no speedo for some reason.

I used to be a incompetent rider crashing on THE Gravel and many unique conditions on pavement - none of which involved turning, only forced stoppie level braking into corners or intersections going rather slow when surprised by a leaping car or truck around a bend or whipping in front of me because I was going so slow they thought they'd given my enough room or just didn't see me in time because I was behaving too fucking peacefully l didn't scare them. All of these braking crashed occurred on very steep noise down spots or very loose spots surface slopped away so steep by time foot touched ground bike was past 45' to hold up and foot would just slide out for bike to land on me. Rest of ya do what ya think best but I'm confirmed crazy man on a cycle in public partly to get mileage off side walls and get noticed immediately.

Everyone in the world but me on tri-linked isolastic Ms Peel only thinks of excessive power only useful in opens but for me its more power to twist up frame and distort rear tire to store more energy to release suddenly w/o rebound into-out of Phase Three and Four handling style for the sling shot G Spike at apexes where everyone else is at worse acceleration hook up traction. Pahaw straights or for relaxing and catching breath for the next breathtaking decreasing radius entry. Only flat trackers understand this but this don't have traction enough to pull of but beginnings of Phase Three and Four, so basically still stuck in phase 2 counter steering.

Bad ass as Kelly's Georges 282 lb 850 winner was it did not jerk my ass out of seat so had to let off or wheelie too high so not quite up to the G forces I got out of Peel or P!! floating front couple inches as the hot shots aiming for same narrow entry raised up like Hi Ho Silver and fall back out of sight. Believe it or not all the above is so conquered boring easy effortless thoughtless to do on Peel, she's mainly set up for the raw off road stuff of trial and MX conditions that have unpredictabl-ness challenges involved.

So the dyno results are in. Peak SAE horsepower at 6450 came out at 145.3 HP. OH BABY.

Ken just as well leave his bike at home as I am going to go get the Bonneville record. Jim