Interview with Les Emery

Coming back to another interesting question raised:

I see no reason why you should supply him but 10 years ago, I, (as representative of a US/Canadian company) refused to supply a competitor of one of our long standing customers. The outcome was that we were legally forced to supply them based on a somewhat vague 'Restrictive Practices' claim. We had no reason to refuse since they had not created any justification (late payments etc.). Oddly they were in Emery's part of the world.

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This was something I feared when I cancelled the account, but, fortunately, in the following acrimonious exchange of opinions and views Mr.E. made a rather unfortunate statement in writing that makes it impossible for him to ever come back to us with a "Restrictive Practices" claim.
Enough said.
Joe/Andover Norton

This was something I feared when I cancelled the account, but, fortunately, in the following acrimonious exchange of opinions and views Mr.E. made a rather unfortunate statement in writing that makes it impossible for him to ever come back to us with a "Restrictive Practices" claim.
Enough said.

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I expect the German language has the same or similar phrase but it sounds like he shot himself in the foot!

Keith1069 said:

I expect the German language has the same or similar phrase but it sounds like he shot himself in the foot!

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O, we have a sh*tload of sayings for this occasion but I'd refer to this as "Trick 17 m. S.". That is "mit Selbstverarschung" which means something like "with taking the piss out of oneself". :mrgreen:


Tim

As Joe S. mentioned my story of Les Emery´s Commandos - here it is:
we ordered seven 750cc Commandos at a price of around 11-13000 Deutschmark each, that was in the 90´s a lot of money but my stupid boss was a millionaire and didn´t care. The bikes arrived and looked more or less okay with a couple faults such as wrong clocks( Norvil clocks), used heads, barrels and cases of engine and gearbox. Each bike showed around 80 mls on the odometer despite km clocks were ordered. The first bike was soon sold and a couple hundred miles later the owner complained about powerloss. Took the engine down to find a totally worn cam. The pistons were funny too - they had 4 valve pockets machined, so you could use them left or right in a 750 Norton. Replaced the cam and pistons with proper stuff and got the bike going again - customer was an old man, never thrashing the bike so the cam problem was not created by him as the cam was very soft. Phoned "unfair spares" and told Emery the story. He didn´t want to hear any of it, it was all my fault, we used the wrong oil, we didn´t run the bike in properly etc pp. When I told him that the speedo showed 80 mls already at delivery so the running- in of this motor was done at his place, with his oil and his rider so the fault was actually started by him he refused to talk to me any more. He specified that monograde oil had to be used - so I asked him why he put stickers on the frame saying 20W50 is correct.....
Needless to say, we never got cams and correct pistons nor any money to compensate the work.....

Cheers Hartmut

Put this claim:

Current production is between 23 and 30 bikes per year, with over 500 machines sold. These are brand new time-warp motorcycles built on modern equipment;

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against Hartmut's actual experience:

The bikes arrived and looked more or less okay with a couple faults such as wrong clocks( Norvil clocks), used heads, barrels and cases of engine and gearbox.

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and simply ask yourself:
Where did 500+ brandnew cylinder heads over twenty years come from, given that the very last new ones at Norton Motors Ltd were sold in the mid-1980s, even given that Andover Norton's chief buyer in his infinite wisdom sold a couple of dozen unfinished ones to Mr.E. years ago?
Where did he find 500+ brandnew crankshafts? Or 1000+ brandnew wheel hubs? And I have not even started to talk about the plethora of smaller parts and fittings it takes to build a brandnew motorcycle.

The "brand new time-warp motorcycles built on modern equipment" are in my eyes restorations to a varying degree- as are all the bikes of the members of this forum.

When the Emerys met with us to sell us their business- in which I made perfectly clear I had no interest, I wanted neither the company name, nor a motorcycle spares retail shop- one point in the discussion was the building of these "new" machines. One family member bemoaned the increasing difficulty and rising prices of what it called "donor bikes" for their "new" Commandos(!) Ever heard of Harley or BMW looking for "donor bikes" to produce their new motorcycles?

When Kenny Dreer's outfit Norton America was still hoping to eventually produce motorcycles their lawyer was desperate to have "use" of the trademark on complete motorcycles. He asked our company Norton Motors Ltd to produce new Norton rotaries.
Even though we had most of the parts in stock at the time, all the drawings, and company co-owner Richard Negus, Norton's "Head of Motorcycles" in the rotary era, as our Managing Director, it was simply financially not viable. Hence we declined.

The lawyer then fell for the idea to have "use" through Emery's production of "new" Commandos. In trade mark law terms these Commandos started life as Nortons in the 1970s and have been Nortons ever since, so restoring them does not constitute "use", as would building really brandnew motorcycles, then putting a trademark on them. Trade Mark Law says the Norton trademark was already "spent" on these bikes in the 1970s, and rebuilding them does not constitute new "use" of the Norton TM in terms of motorcycle production.

End of lecture.

What an interesting thread. :shock: Many thanks (again) and moocho kudos to ZFD for his input

I was given a guided tour of the Norvil assembly workshop, i know Les reasonably well, the bikes had new heads ready, these are from old castings ,,Lawton Sales machined them, and kirby Rowbottom finnished them . Pete Lovell used to do some work .port blending etc. Les as "all new" parts to construct New machines. Andover and Norvil aint sleeping together, thats 100% :lol: mayby Les should be invited onto this forum. instead of keep hearing one side of the story :!:
I know Les can be a little self -opinonated but we must be glad that someone in the industrial stripped UK is still out there Kicking :?: and making British Motorbikes, from 90% Uk parts?...to me if he only makes 10 bikes a year. Les is finding work for dozens . and those bikes will put smiles on hundreds of faces....amen.

A self opinionated man involved with Norton motorcycles?
A few hundred more on this forum I think (self included)

Glen

Yes abit under-stated! Now heres a mind blowing pub gathering Stew Gardner,Les ,Joe [andover] and our Hobit! Tickets anyone :?:
Opinions on here fly far and wide :lol:

worntorn said:

A self opinionated man involved with Norton motorcycles?
A few hundred more on this forum I think (self included)

Glen

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john robert bould said:

mayby Les should be invited onto this forum. instead of keep hearing one side of the story :!:

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Err why does he need an invite? This forum is free for everyone to participate in should they chose to, he obviously chooses not too, anyway with you bating on his side he doesn't need to. :?

That's right.

just a minute......

OK, all set.

the bikes had new heads ready, these are from old castings

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Everybody and his dog has seen the few new heads that were made from about a couple of dozen leftover castings Andover Norton's chief buyer sold Mr.E. many years ago- long before I owned Andover Norton. Including me, when I was given a tour of the premises six years ago.

If I was to tell the world I was building new bikes I'd make bloody sure people saw a few choice new parts nearly everybody in the scene knows are (were, now with Fullauto doing them) not available new. If you came to Andover Norton even we could show you new heads (just a couple). Until a few weeks ago we had some new crankshafts etc. These things turn up occasionally if one is in the trade. The small number turning up is not sufficient, however, for us to list these parts. Much less to produce totally new bikes continuously, let alone to plan the ongoing manufacture of bikes based on these chance purchases.
I can but repeat Hartmut's report on the seven "new" machines his boss bought:

used heads, barrels and cases of engine and gearbox

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and my question

Ever heard of Harley or BMW looking for "donor bikes" to produce their new motorcycles?

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Accidently, I saw three of the bikes years later (2003), after Hartmut's boss' shop had gone belly-up. I advised the then seller not to continue to advertize them as "new", because quite obviously they weren't, and that the claim could cause legal problems for him.

Not sure what point you are attempting to make, but for your info; the heads [approx 20] where machined by Dennis Lawton
Dennis also makes the iso's for Norvil, mayby you have some? Anyway Dennis lives around the corner and i saw may heads being machined, Les offered the job of valve seat fitting and port blending to me, as i have Pete lovells equipment....i declined as i have no Nitrogen freezing equipment, valve seat inserts require approx .005 interferance . As i have already said, anyone today in the Uk making motorcyles and providing quaility parts to keep nortons on the road needs a a Good pat on the back...and that includes you Joe :!:

ZFD said:

the bikes had new heads ready, these are from old castings

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Everybody and his dog has seen the few new heads that were made from about a couple of dozen leftover castings Andover Norton's chief buyer sold Mr.E. many years ago- long before I owned Andover Norton. Including me, when I was given a tour of the premises six years ago.

If I was to tell the world I was building new bikes I'd make bloody sure people saw a few choice new parts nearly everybody in the scene knows are (were, now with Fullauto doing them) not available new. If you came to Andover Norton even we could show you new heads (just a couple). Until a few weeks ago we had some new crankshafts etc. These things turn up occasionally if one is in the trade. The small number turning up is not sufficient, however, for us to list these parts. Much less to produce totally new bikes continuously, let alone to plan the ongoing manufacture of bikes based on these chance purchases.
I can but repeat Hartmut's report on the seven "new" machines his boss bought:

used heads, barrels and cases of engine and gearbox

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and my question

Ever heard of Harley or BMW looking for "donor bikes" to produce their new motorcycles?

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Accidently, I saw three of the bikes years later (2003), after Hartmut's boss' shop had gone belly-up. I advised the then seller not to continue to advertize them as "new", because quite obviously they weren't, and that the claim could cause legal problems for him.

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Which proves my point: twenty heads for a claimed 500 bikes.

[

Joe, My maths are failing me! Les claimed he had made 500 bikes, so if he as 20 heads left in stock...does that add up to a possible 520 bikes :?:

quote="ZFD"]Which proves my point: twenty heads for a claimed 500 bikes.[/quote]

john robert bould said:

[

Joe, My maths are failing me! Les claimed he had made 500 bikes, so if he as 20 heads left in stock...does that add up to a possible 520 bikes :?:

quote="ZFD"]Which proves my point: twenty heads for a claimed 500 bikes.

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[/quote]

It's not your math that's failing you, it's your faith.

How many bikes did you SEE made? How many heads did you SEE? That's how many there were, not what someone told you.

I became a Andover Norton customer as of a week or so back,phoned on a Wednesday work night (sorry about the short phone call ) and the box arrived yesterday on the day I was flying home so a bit over eleven days including post from the UK.
70 items in total.
I also rang R K Leighton's in the UK to order a seat for the 1957 Triumph TR6 the same night.
My main concern when dealing with parts suppliers is the quality and what might turn up,the Andover Norton parts look to be just that,like the originals.
It can be a total mine field in a lot of cases,the last box to open is the one from India containing the Interstate fuel tank,in typical fashion after purchasing it I picked up a 'mint 1971 Fastback long range fuel tank this week locally.

With J.R.Bould, maths are not the problem, gullability is.

According to an ex-employee of Norton Motors Ltd, Richard Negus, then the Spares Manager, the story is as follows:

In 1982'ish, there were 20 or so head castings, some part machined, that came out of Norton Villiers Wolverhampton factory and, for a while, were at Shenstone.

There was no ex-NV tooling/patterns for those heads, or for 750/850 barrels, or crankcases, or gearbox shells, or timing covers, or primary chaincases. With the exception of heads, all such new tooling, and more, has been produced by Andover Norton as circumstances allow.

If Emery had produced new head pattern equipment, then the world would have heard about it. Only Fullauto has done so.

The heads that Bould saw being machined are, without doubt, the same head castings that were at Shenstone, and his comment that they carried the 'Birco' trademark confirms them being castings from the 1970's.