Engine troubles

Stu Bodycote said:
If its still on its original barrels, Id do a cylinder leak down test. The old SE's had steel liners that were renowned for dropping....and a basic compression test tells you bugger all. Visually, the steel liner barrels have a machined area visible around the bottom of the barrel as you look at the engine (if that makes sense?). The later Niklasil plated barrels are just cast finished all over.
The SE's ran an sva spec Omex 600 ecu (not the 630, although they do look the same externally), and dont have an OBD port like the SC ecu's.
Primary side has a gasket.
Being an SE you also wont have an idle air control solenoid, as this was something introduced on euro3 bikes.
Sump plate was originally supplied with a gasket, but this was omitted in favour of rtv (threebond 1217).
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Thanks Stu.
I cant remember if my bike has the Nikkis or not. I think it might but I’ll take a look at the barrels and see if i can determine it. I dont have a leak down test so I’d have to acquire one somehow.
- my bike is #114 and titled as a 2013. But I remember that the vin numbers didn’t always follow each other. If it has IAC, is it located on the intake? I’ll check my maintenance manual too for a location. I’m just curious about it.
- good info on the sump plate. I’ll keep that in mind.
Cheers
 
Charlotte said:
Thanks Stu.
I cant remember if my bike has the Nikkis or not. I think it might but I’ll take a look at the barrels and see if i can determine it. I dont have a leak down test so I’d have to acquire one somehow.
- my bike is #114 and titled as a 2013. But I remember that the vin numbers didn’t always follow each other. If it has IAC, is it located on the intake? I’ll check my maintenance manual too for a location. I’m just curious about it.
- good info on the sump plate. I’ll keep that in mind.
Cheers
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Yeah frame numbers didnt really follow each other. They were issued on the build plan, but production often went to who ever shouted the loudest or paid in full the quickest. For example, one of the first, if not the first, production V4's ended frame number 000121. Limited edition production numbers were never fulfilled either... there was never 200 SE's, no where near. Its a bit like the Dominator Donington's, only two were made, numbers 1 & 6.
The idle air control, if fitted, is mounted centrally beneath the throttle bodies.
 
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Stu Bodycote said:
Bikes were often upgraded or changed about throughout. If they had running concerns, especially during warranty period, people would just blindly throw parts at them until they worked again. So I guess nothing was really set in stone in that respect. The company demo was a good example of this....number 69, the Panther as we knew it. All blacked out commando, Michael Dunlop did a mag feature riding it around the iom, and Chris Walker raped that poor bike up at Darleymore circuit. That thing saw plenty of revisions.
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its interesting because the bikes sent to the US were a mixed sort
 
Charlotte said:
Thanks Stu.
I cant remember if my bike has the Nikkis or not. I think it might but I’ll take a look at the barrels and see if i can determine it. I dont have a leak down test so I’d have to acquire one somehow.
- my bike is #114 and titled as a 2013. But I remember that the vin numbers didn’t always follow each other. If it has IAC, is it located on the intake? I’ll check my maintenance manual too for a location. I’m just curious about it.
- good info on the sump plate. I’ll keep that in mind.
Cheers
Click to expand...
I just checked the cylinders and appears the “cast finish” goes the whole length of the cylinders. Most likely Nikasil?
 
Charlotte said:
I just checked the cylinders and appears the “cast finish” goes the whole length of the cylinders. Most likely Nikasil?
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start with simple, more likely easy failures, before assuming something catastrophic. especially since the engine is running. rule out the easy stuff before you start digging.
 
City Garage said:
its interesting because the bikes sent to the US were a mixed sort
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Ok, I did a quick bit of digging. It seems USA is slightly different. The sixth digit on your frame number should be an S, which was designated as Commando SE (For USA)... every day is a school day. I'm not sure on the differences, but my assumption is anything sold new in America has to be homologated. So you probably got a mishmash of parts. The UK SE was released in 2010, was not homologated so each individual bike had to be msva'd. Msva'd bikes ran the old 600 ecu with no iac.
 
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Charlotte said:
I just checked the cylinders and appears the “cast finish” goes the whole length of the cylinders. Most likely Nikasil?
Click to expand...
Yeah if you can't see a machined band around the base of the barrel, then it'll be niklasil bores.
The steel liners were horrendously bad, like ticking time bombs. Hence Norton pretty early on addressing the problem. Blown headgaskets between cylinders was also a big problem, which saw the introduction of the "head retorque procedure". I assume that was an issue because of the oddly specced head bolts ie high tensile in the centre, and stainless studs for the outer four.
Most of your basic checks are covered, seeing as it runs. So for me, if it was in my workshop, I'd do a cylinder leak down test next.
 
Charlotte said:
Thanks for the insight.
- the bike was running at idle when the change happened.
- i will check the plug boots for damage
- I did check the header pipe temps right after it happened( with the bike running). But I dont remember anything glaringly obvious. I will definitely check again when I get to the point of running the engine.
- the bike runs rough at all rpms and throttle positions.
- regarding the ecu….can you tell me more on your comment? The ECU is the original type. It has been updated/programmed for different exhaust and idle parameters. Does the ECU plug a standard obd2 handheld reader? Or is it a specific reader?
- your comment on the timing chain side makes sense.
- the primary side…. I could follow the suggestions to check all the external things(sensors, hoses,etc). But I might pull the primary cover just for piece of mind.
And I’m still curious why the bike was running so quietly from the primary area( this might not be related to the existing problem)
- regarding the revving response. It seemed like it was able to idle. But when opening the throttle, it seemed like it wanted to “blubber” more then increase in rpm. If that makes sense.
- I’ll try the injector trick and see what happens. Good point on the spark plugs while doing that test. That would be quit the sight of flame from the spark plug hole!!!
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Hi,
the best you can do is contact Dave Coote.
He is the best address in Canada.
Other soulutions is only digging in the dirt.
You spend a lot of time and money for nothing.
 
Thanks again for the information everyone. I think I should be able to take a look at the bike so more today. Hopefully I’ll find something obvious.
I’ll keep Mr Cootes in mind for sure.
 
Stu Bodycote said:
If its still on its original barrels, Id do a cylinder leak down test. The old SE's had steel liners that were renowned for dropping....and a basic compression test tells you bugger all. Visually, the steel liner barrels have a machined area visible around the bottom of the barrel as you look at the engine (if that makes sense?). The later Niklasil plated barrels are just cast finished all over.
The SE's ran an sva spec Omex 600 ecu (not the 630, although they do look the same externally), and dont have an OBD port like the SC ecu's.
Primary side has a gasket.
Being an SE you also wont have an idle air control solenoid, as this was something introduced on euro3 bikes.
Sump plate was originally supplied with a gasket, but this was omitted in favour of rtv (threebond 1217).
Click to expand...
Hi Stu , How did they handle the idle on the early bikes without the IAC ?
 
From cold, you had to hold the revs until it warmed up enough to idle on its own.
My own 961 build, has no iac. If it aint fitted, it aint gonna give me trouble :D
I had a 2010, 800 mile SE in for a full recommissioning a couple of months ago. Apart from the noisy clutch (dont know why the billet clutches were noisier), it went really well...pulled like a train. And you certainly notice those carbon wheels, much more flickable.
Sorry OP, gone off topic... I'm bad for that.
 
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Stu Bodycote said:
From cold, you had to hold the revs until it warmed up enough to idle on its own.
My own 961 build, has no iac. If it aint fitted, it aint gonna give me trouble :D
I had a 2010, 800 mile SE in for a full recommissioning a couple of months ago. Apart from the noisy clutch (dont know why the billet clutches were noisier), it went really well...pulled like a train. And you certainly notice those carbon wheels, much more flickable.
Sorry OP, gone off topic... I'm bad for that.
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Did Norton Block the passage between the throats ? Or may those throttle bodies had no passage ? Thanks for your response .
 
Ive never bothered studying those throttle bodies, sorry. They never had the provision on them for a iac solenoid though ie no mounting lugs.
 
Stu Bodycote said:
Ive never bothered studying those throttle bodies, sorry. They never had the provision on them for a iac solenoid though ie no mounting lugs.
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I think I have one of those throttle bodies here now , I bought from ebay UK. No IAC mounting ears , but does have the passage and the hose spigots. Thanks again.
 
Ive just paid to upgrade so I can post pictures...just bloody easier haha.
But here's a true UK SE. You can see the lack of iac, looks neater for it too.
 

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Nikasil plated on left, steel liners on right... quick check differences
 

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And just a random workshop picture, as its a nice view. Now I can post pics, I'll probably be all over these pages in future... sorry :eek::D
 

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Yes my UK throttle bodies also have the Green Bosch Injectors . Then they went to the Grey type.
 
Spot the head casting on that SE too? That was engine number 12. Such an original bike, perfect. The only modification I did was later spec rubber heat mat fixings/pop rivets, and a primary breather. Bagged the original parts up so he could keep them with the bike.
 
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