Engine troubles

Charlotte · Oct 23, 2021

Hello Everyone
I have a 2013 961 SE #114. I’m the original owner. It was my 50th bday present. It gets yearly servicing and isn’t ridden hard(IMHO). The engine has been apart. It has had the crank bearings upgraded to the better bearings. The balancer shaft was rebalanced using Jim Bs method. New balance gear spring. And any other mods that were suggested at time from Dave C (sorry I cant remember all the items). The bike has 3700 miles and about 2000 miles since the engine was upgraded. The bike was running very well.
Today I took it for a 15 minute ride to warm the oil up for an oil change. As as I pulled up to my shop, the engine started running very rough. Shaking. Like a plug wire had been removed. It had a hard time revving up. I shut the engine off and grabbed a infra red thermometer to check the pipes for a dead cyLinder. I couldn’t really see a big difference between to the 2 pipes. I then pulled the spark plugs. They were black( might not be associated with the problem). I then did a compression test. Throttle side=150. Clutch side 140-145. I then checked for spark. Both plugs had lots of spark. I did start the bike back up but didn’t want to run very much incase something has broken inside.
When the engine is running, there is abnormal engine noise. Its hard to explain but its more of a intermittent “clinking” rather then a consistent “tick” or “knock”. I’d almost think there’s something floating around Inside. If that makes any sense.
The next info is my observations and I’ll try not to use terms to lead anyone’s ideas down the wrong path…..

- I haven’t looked at the engine oil dipstick but there were no indicator warning lights illuminated.
- I think something has come apart inside the engine( that might be obvious to many!)
- Before today, for approx 200-300 miles, there has been virtually no noise coming from the primary. Very quiet compared to when the bike was new, changed balance shaft spring, etc. Is it possible that something has happened to the balance shaft and that is causing the shaking/rough running?
- what about the timing side? Is there anything there that might cause it?
- the clutch has always been a bit weird. It wouldn’t always fully engage so grinding would happen. I thought it was needing bleeding and I was going to do that on this service.
- would a fuel injector be a cause?

Tomorrow I’ll pull the engine oil filter and look for debris. I’ll also dump the primary oil and see what comes out. But I’m thinking I will have no choice but to take a look in the primary to see if everything is obvious.

I think thats all I can remember from the situation for now. If anyone posts a response, I might not get a chance to get back to the forum till later tonight (PST) or tomorrow but I would appreciate any ideas?
Thanks Everyone
Shayne

Fast Eddie · Oct 24, 2021

That is a LOT of aggravation in 3,700 miles Shayne! Can’t help yer I’m afraid… but I feel for yer….

Henrynorton · Oct 24, 2021

Shayne not a 961 man and I feel for all of you guys.

Keeping things simple using your information.

You have a good engine running rich and giving the plugs a hard time.

I would check the choke lever and then the carb for flooding.

Guess you may have a wire off or sensor down.

If its rich and hitting and missing maybe the noise reflects just that.

The old school Gunson colourtune would be a good tool.

Fingers crossed its this simple.

Keith

kommando · Oct 24, 2021

Your plan for next items to look at seems good. Trouble with newer bikes is even with lots of info the root cause is difficult to find even if you get the check engine light on and have a code. I would be looking for air hoses coming loose and anything connected to the idle circuit and idle control next if your first search is not fruitful as this type of fault can be rich mixtures.

ntst8 · Oct 24, 2021

If you have had clutch issues then suggest it is worth a look in there. Idler gear springs have been known to fail, as have clutch basket rivets and starter ring gear bolts.

BLIGHTYBRIT/SF · Oct 24, 2021

& just a reminder of what those little springs can do on the back of the clutch basket , minute piece broke off one , the noise was like some one inside the engine banging a club hammer, seconds from going bang probably.

TonyA · Oct 24, 2021

Charlotte said:
Hello Everyone
I have a 2013 961 SE #114. I’m the original owner. It was my 50th bday present. It gets yearly servicing and isn’t ridden hard(IMHO). The engine has been apart. It has had the crank bearings upgraded to the better bearings. The balancer shaft was rebalanced using Jim Bs method. New balance gear spring. And any other mods that were suggested at time from Dave C (sorry I cant remember all the items). The bike has 3700 miles and about 2000 miles since the engine was upgraded. The bike was running very well.
Today I took it for a 15 minute ride to warm the oil up for an oil change. As as I pulled up to my shop, the engine started running very rough. Shaking. Like a plug wire had been removed. It had a hard time revving up. I shut the engine off and grabbed a infra red thermometer to check the pipes for a dead cyLinder. I couldn’t really see a big difference between to the 2 pipes. I then pulled the spark plugs. They were black( might not be associated with the problem). I then did a compression test. Throttle side=150. Clutch side 140-145. I then checked for spark. Both plugs had lots of spark. I did start the bike back up but didn’t want to run very much incase something has broken inside.
When the engine is running, there is abnormal engine noise. Its hard to explain but its more of a intermittent “clinking” rather then a consistent “tick” or “knock”. I’d almost think there’s something floating around Inside. If that makes any sense.
The next info is my observations and I’ll try not to use terms to lead anyone’s ideas down the wrong path…..

- I haven’t looked at the engine oil dipstick but there were no indicator warning lights illuminated.
- I think something has come apart inside the engine( that might be obvious to many!)
- Before today, for approx 200-300 miles, there has been virtually no noise coming from the primary. Very quiet compared to when the bike was new, changed balance shaft spring, etc. Is it possible that something has happened to the balance shaft and that is causing the shaking/rough running?
- what about the timing side? Is there anything there that might cause it?
- the clutch has always been a bit weird. It wouldn’t always fully engage so grinding would happen. I thought it was needing bleeding and I was going to do that on this service.
- would a fuel injector be a cause?

Tomorrow I’ll pull the engine oil filter and look for debris. I’ll also dump the primary oil and see what comes out. But I’m thinking I will have no choice but to take a look in the primary to see if everything is obvious.

I think thats all I can remember from the situation for now. If anyone posts a response, I might not get a chance to get back to the forum till later tonight (PST) or tomorrow but I would appreciate any ideas?
Thanks Everyone
Shayne

Hello , I have been told about fuel injectors going bad. Actually getting clogged by rust from the steel fuel rail , And it can happen suddenly . But I would proceed with some caution . You are changing the oil now anyway , So pull four covers and have a good look around. Primary cover , Rocker cover , Timing cover and sump plate . Look for anything parts, pieces , debris. While all is off , turn the engine and check for smoothness etc. You can check the balance shaft and bearings but must remove the primary side drive gear , then the oil pump and spin it from the oil pump side. If you have communication with Bushman ask him what he thinks. Check valve operation and the lifter pre load. Buy a couple of injectors or have yours tested and cleaned.

BritTwit · Oct 24, 2021

Loud clinking/clanking sound - I'd definitely take a look inside the primary at the intermediate gear or clutch.

But that would not explain the black plugs, that could be a separate issue.
it may have been running rich all along, but it was never noticed.
Does the bike start as it did before, or is it now difficult to start?
Do you have an OBD2 reader?
You should check for error codes.
Could be a bad temp sensor, or O2 sensor.

Charlotte · Oct 24, 2021

Thanks everyone for the feedback.
I’ll stick with the basic plan of more investigating.
A couple of questions though…
- I don’t remember a sump plate.. I’m guessing its at the bottom of the crank case? If I remove it, does it use a gasket or an o ring?
- OBD 2 reader… I didn’t realize the bike is set up for one. Where does it plug in. Does it use the standard OBD2 plug or is there an adaptor?
- for the primary cover. Does it use a gasket or o ring?
- Regarding parts, I do have a shop manual. Does it show part numbers? Depending on the part, is the Norton Factory easy to deal with?

I’ll keep everyone posted on the progress over the next few days with findings. Thanks again for the info.
Cheers everyone!
Shayne

BritTwit · Oct 24, 2021

Yes sump plate is on the bottom of the crankcase, and it has a gasket.
OBD2 plug is attached to ECU (on SCS-Delta ecu) with a wire/cable. When you remove the seat, you should see the plug and wire.
No OBD2 plug on OMEX ecu's. Not sure which your bike has.
Primary has a gasket as well.

Fast Eddie · Oct 24, 2021

Charlotte said:
- Regarding parts, I do have a shop manual. Does it show part numbers? Depending on the part, is the Norton Factory easy to deal with?

Sadly Shayne this is where things will get even worse for you. If you read the link below you’ll see folk haven’t been able to get even the most rudimentary service items from Norton…

Solihull is back in business?

I received an email to tonight confirming that Solihull is back in business and keen to, where possible, help with 961 parts etc. They did say that records from their predecessors range from poor to non existent so there may be limits on what the can help with. No great surprise there, but good...

www.accessnorton.com

cliffa · Oct 24, 2021

Hi Shayne as others have suggested the primary side is the source of most issues. It's probably not a good idea to run it but if you do, use the screwdriver trick or a stethoscope to determine where the noise is coming from. Definitely do not ride it though until you have determined what the issue is. Is it possible that the ignition trigger has worked loose, as that would affect both the running and make a racket.

Cheers

cliffa.

Charlotte · Oct 24, 2021

Bummer on the parts concern. I guess the good news the bike was going into storage mode for the off season.
I did locate the sump. it looks like the cat converter pipe should be off to access the sump plate. Is there any tricks to removing the convert pipe?
Also, where is the ignition trigger?
Thanks?

City Garage · Oct 24, 2021

TonyA said:
Hello , I have been told about fuel injectors going bad. Actually getting clogged by rust from the steel fuel rail , And it can happen suddenly . But I would proceed with some caution . You are changing the oil now anyway , So pull four covers and have a good look around. Primary cover , Rocker cover , Timing cover and sump plate . Look for anything parts, pieces , debris. While all is off , turn the engine and check for smoothness etc. You can check the balance shaft and bearings but must remove the primary side drive gear , then the oil pump and spin it from the oil pump side. If you have communication with Bushman ask him what he thinks. Check valve operation and the lifter pre load. Buy a couple of injectors or have yours tested and cleaned.

Tony is right, but it typically happens when a bike sits but if it was running fine before and not sitting, then this most likely isn't the problem.

If you are getting spark on both plugs then that's not the issue unless one of the plug boots split(we have had that happen on the stock boots)

Are the exhaust pipe temps at idle the same? The left cylinder should be a little higher at idle. Does it idle ok or is the idle now rough?

If you have the SCS ECU an unlocked ECU will tell you if anything is amiss with any of the running gear and sensors and provide the error codes. You can also trigger the injectors and coils to confirm the operation.

Check the idle air valve hose to ensure its attached

And the last question. You didn't touch the oil before the ride? Just went for a warm-up ride? How long did the bike sit before you rode it?

Regarding the timing side of the bike its two gears and a chain. If something was wrong there you would know it rather quickly...

Regarding the primary side. no need to take it apart until you confirm that its not engine-related.

You stated having a hard time reving. Does that mean when you give it throttle it wants to die or that it struggles to increase RPM?

If you can confirm you have spark(which you did) and you can confirm you have fuel( both in the tank and getting to the cylinders)not enough fuel will cause a rough running engine. You can check its getting to the cylinders by leaving out plugs and turning over the engine is a simple way as the unspent fuel will blow out the cylinders. Make sure plugs are not touching to cause a spark. If you can't confirm this way you would need to pull injectors and test them which is easy as well even without our fancy injector tester.

City Garage · Oct 24, 2021

Charlotte said:
Bummer on the parts concern. I guess the good news the bike was going into storage mode for the off season.
I did locate the sump. it looks like the cat converter pipe should be off to access the sump plate. Is there any tricks to removing the convert pipe?
Also, where is the ignition trigger?
Thanks?

There are two. one in the primary and then the cam sensor which is located in the front of the engine right in the middle. They work together Thats not your issue if you are getting a spark.

ntst8 · Oct 24, 2021

Charlotte said:
- Regarding parts, I do have a shop manual. Does it show part numbers? Depending on the part, is the Norton Factory easy to deal with?

Ollie Thiel, Thiel Motorsport, in Germany is spot on to deal with for parts. He won't have everything but does have gaskets and numerous other parts.

Stu Bodycote · Oct 24, 2021

If its still on its original barrels, Id do a cylinder leak down test. The old SE's had steel liners that were renowned for dropping....and a basic compression test tells you bugger all. Visually, the steel liner barrels have a machined area visible around the bottom of the barrel as you look at the engine (if that makes sense?). The later Niklasil plated barrels are just cast finished all over.
The SE's ran an sva spec Omex 600 ecu (not the 630, although they do look the same externally), and dont have an OBD port like the SC ecu's.
Primary side has a gasket.
Being an SE you also wont have an idle air control solenoid, as this was something introduced on euro3 bikes.
Sump plate was originally supplied with a gasket, but this was omitted in favour of rtv (threebond 1217).

City Garage · Oct 24, 2021

Stu Bodycote said:
If its still on its original barrels, Id do a cylinder leak down test. The old SE's had steel liners that were renowned for dropping....and a basic compression test tells you bugger all. Visually, the steel liner barrels have a machined area visible around the bottom of the barrel as you look at the engine (if that makes sense?). The later Niklasil plated barrels are just cast finished all over.
The SE's ran an sva spec Omex 600 ecu (not the 630, although they do look the same externally), and dont have an OBD port like the SC ecu's.
Primary side has a gasket.
Being an SE you also wont have an idle air control solenoid, as this was something introduced on euro3 bikes.
Sump plate was originally supplied with a gasket, but this was omitted in favour of rtv (threebond 1217).

Was that a change made later because we have an SE in the shop now that has IAC and SCS Typhoon?

Charlotte · Oct 24, 2021

City Garage said:
Tony is right, but it typically happens when a bike sits but if it was running fine before and not sitting, then this most likely isn't the problem.

If you are getting spark on both plugs then that's not the issue unless one of the plug boots split(we have had that happen on the stock boots)

Are the exhaust pipe temps at idle the same? The left cylinder should be a little higher at idle. Does it idle ok or is the idle now rough?

If you have the SCS ECU an unlocked ECU will tell you if anything is amiss with any of the running gear and sensors and provide the error codes. You can also trigger the injectors and coils to confirm the operation.

Check the idle air valve hose to ensure its attached

And the last question. You didn't touch the oil before the ride? Just went for a warm-up ride? How long did the bike sit before you rode it?

Regarding the timing side of the bike its two gears and a chain. If something was wrong there you would know it rather quickly...

Regarding the primary side. no need to take it apart until you confirm that its not engine-related.

You stated having a hard time reving. Does that mean when you give it throttle it wants to die or that it struggles to increase RPM?

If you can confirm you have spark(which you did) and you can confirm you have fuel( both in the tank and getting to the cylinders)not enough fuel will cause a rough running engine. You can check its getting to the cylinders by leaving out plugs and turning over the engine is a simple way as the unspent fuel will blow out the cylinders. Make sure plugs are not touching to cause a spark. If you can't confirm this way you would need to pull injectors and test them which is easy as well even without our fancy injector tester.

Thanks for the insight.
- the bike was running at idle when the change happened.
- i will check the plug boots for damage
- I did check the header pipe temps right after it happened( with the bike running). But I dont remember anything glaringly obvious. I will definitely check again when I get to the point of running the engine.
- the bike runs rough at all rpms and throttle positions.
- regarding the ecu….can you tell me more on your comment? The ECU is the original type. It has been updated/programmed for different exhaust and idle parameters. Does the ECU plug a standard obd2 handheld reader? Or is it a specific reader?
- your comment on the timing chain side makes sense.
- the primary side…. I could follow the suggestions to check all the external things(sensors, hoses,etc). But I might pull the primary cover just for piece of mind.
And I’m still curious why the bike was running so quietly from the primary area( this might not be related to the existing problem)
- regarding the revving response. It seemed like it was able to idle. But when opening the throttle, it seemed like it wanted to “blubber” more then increase in rpm. If that makes sense.
- I’ll try the injector trick and see what happens. Good point on the spark plugs while doing that test. That would be quit the sight of flame from the spark plug hole!!!

Stu Bodycote · Oct 24, 2021

City Garage said:
Was that a change made later because we have an SE in the shop now that has IAC and SCS Typhoon?

Bikes were often upgraded or changed about throughout. If they had running concerns, especially during warranty period, people would just blindly throw parts at them until they worked again. So I guess nothing was really set in stone in that respect. The company demo was a good example of this....number 69, the Panther as we knew it. All blacked out commando, Michael Dunlop did a mag feature riding it around the iom, and Chris Walker raped that poor bike up at Darleymore circuit. That thing saw plenty of revisions.

Engine troubles

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