engine braking

I've always used the engine to control road speed and braking with a bit of a squeeze on the rear drum to finally pull up to a stop. Even when i upgrade the front disc I doubt I'll use it too much because i enjoy running up and down the ratios and hearing the different sounds coming out the exhaust. Thinking about the front disc upgrade got me thinking tho' - how good is this riding style for the commando motor and gearbox ? Brake pads are cheaper and easier to replace after all . .

I've got 2 riding buddys with oriental made vehicles who say they don't use the front brake much , just the motor's compression to come to a stop. So I gave it a try and gave up. It's just not my style or I'm no good at it. Front braking (13 mm upgraded) for me and rarely touch the rear come to think of it. Whatever works for you I guess. Can't see it harming the motor or gearbox.

The engine makes you go, the brakes make you stop. That's the way I look at it anyway

For street use, engine braking is nice and I use it. I don't see it as being abusive to the bike unless you start skidding the rear wheel or excessively slipping the clutch on down shift.

For me, with racing, it is a bit of a nuisance and muddles up the setup for turns. The lions share of stopping power is from the front brake and trying to perfectly manage the engine braking and available rear tire traction while hard on the brakes is distracting.

Many of the larger displacement road racers (ex. Ducati) now use slipper clutches to avoid this problem.

I will admit to slipping the clutch to bring the gear in easy and match roadspeed when changing - never got the hang of double blipping the throttle to match engine and clutch at speed. There is so much torque and tractability on these motors that the temptation is just to drive on a balance of throttle and clutch all the time tho. I think modern motorcycle engines are designed to do this - not so sure the 750 commando.

There are 2 issues on engine braking I've run into so don't hardly do it no more to matter much, one it upsets rear tire traction and chassis reaction leaned and two it puts a lot more wear on the sleeve bushes that can not get lube when spun so the clutch wobble appears all the sooner. Its good practice to only use rear brake to *slow* > in case the front brake goes away or so steep/slick surface front tire just skips out from under, but its bad practice not to have constantly refreshed innate reflexes built up on front brake-tire limits as its the only really effective braking force when braking hard really matters. I'm no racer but boy howdy I know better than fast down shift from speed w/o giving some throttle up each clutch-less shift or feathering the clutch release. In my case the 3rd reason not to use engine drag on rear tire much is the tire and chain mileage factor. One fun stunt if rear brake enough to lock up at like 30 mph is to nail rear upright then ride the skewed diagonal slide to a stop while steering like a flat tracker but not leaning any with a foot down. Putting the 850 higher 2nd gear ratio in place of the 750 helps eliminate tendency of rear to chatter and skip on 3rd to 2nd down shifts w/o blipping engine up or easing out clutch. There is some risk of over reving the engine down shifting from upper engine rpms and chews up the the thinner rear hub brake side cushion pads faster too.

I've always blipped the throttle and match road speed while downshifting. Mostly to be sure the gearbox is free, as sometimes it's tough to go from 4th all the way down when the bike is at a stop. But the front brake is definitely my main control for slowing down.

maylar said:

I've always blipped the throttle and match road speed while downshifting. Mostly to be sure the gearbox is free, as sometimes it's tough to go from 4th all the way down when the bike is at a stop. But the front brake is definitely my main control for slowing down.

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+1... I do this as it maybe better for the gearbix to meet the rest of the motor force at the same revs. Ever slap into lower gear without matching revs, ugh what a drag!

I think hard engine braking is a promoter of failed layshaft bearings. This along with hard shifting practices.

I used to use engine braking a lot because it was the only effective means of stopping short of dragging my feet. But now that I have the brakes worked out, I don't do it much. I can remember planning about a mile ahead when I was driving around I495 and up 270 from College Park to Rockville to go to work. No way would I get on that road now on the Norton.

I do tend to use the rear brake more than the front, but there is a lot of crap on the roads around here after storms, I keep the front brake for hauling down fast on straight stops.

Dave
69S

pvisseriii said:

I think hard engine braking is a promoter of failed layshaft bearings. This along with hard shifting practices.

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+1 This is what I have been told.

Stands to reason when you get the rear wheel bouncing and jerking up all the slack in the drive train. Plenty of nasty shock loads.

Dang it we only got so many weekend left, so mature and sensible as I am most the time and nothing really sensible on bikes larger than 250 cc, so living in a ground zero of biker wonder land there's often the occasion I snick down to let the Norton peashooter over run ring in the limestone canyons of Eureka Springs or buildings of out village square. Sometimes after I've potato-potato'd short shifted past big twins into 4th to 50+ I snick to 2nd, so sound comes on with like 5000+ rpm WOT howl into redline.

In wet or other slick condition or slopes both brakes at once give most secure slowing. So summary of all the post is its not a good practice to do very much run over at much speed but fun as can be with your clothes on. If ya going fairly slow the tranny will down shift automatically with just very light lever pressure, either just holding it or at accurate point of matched spining parts for a nice lullaby of soft burbling that ain't hurting nothing or no body. I stay in long periods in 4th or 3rd coasting down mostly steady speed Gravel steeps with sharp bends at end which will teach ya on how to best use both brakes just right or else...

As to those that don't use front brake much, I'm in that camp too when on THE Gravel I can no longer grab front brake or my hand burns like red hot rod witch test so must instantly let go, d/t built in reflexes faster than my thinking mind impressed to the bone by what happened trying to use front as if worked there, ugh ouch.

maylar said:

I've always blipped the throttle and match road speed while downshifting. Mostly to be sure the gearbox is free, as sometimes it's tough to go from 4th all the way down when the bike is at a stop. But the front brake is definitely my main control for slowing down.

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+1 on everything Maylar states. After so many thousands of miles and countless downshifts, I have mastered the "blip" and match the 4th to 3rd gear perfectly and w/o really thinking about it. Same goes from 3rd to 2nd...just a normal process used to slow for the planned stop. Of course, 2nd to 1st is always much more gentle, happening in the last 15 or so ft. of the stop...a smooth glide into 1st and ready for neutral. This process happens, of course, with a measured application of front & rear brakes...probably 70% front to 30% rear w/ more rear in the last 15 ft.....but then there's corners where that equation doesn't work...and sudden/panic stops...and....

OK...I"m done.

Then there is the false neutral between say fourth and third, so you spontaneously tag the shift lever again only to find you are letting the clutch out in second!!!!!!!

Street riding for me is blips and downshift; more or less automatic now.

Shifting into second at 80 mph is a good way to develop a elictrical fault ( rod thru wireing loom ) and a positively ventilated crankcase .

Downshifting loads rods more ( in tension ) throttle off . Per RPM . THEREFORE if you dont use over 2/3 rpm AT the downshift & co ordinate it , it may not blow .

A practitioner off sntting the thing into the lower gears with the throttle made graunches and crunches in drive tension on nearly every shift either way , on the C'do . :x
Wasnt keen to let him repeat the exercise . Same blew a Triumph same tecnique . Clod Hoppers for boots . The U K Cops were notorious gear cruncers , according to Shilton .

Correct Tecnique , Toe on Shifter and fingertips on clutch . Should Produce a clean shift , up or down . If it wont go - DONT force it . Mid Range revs are fine though .
And sound really cool as you ccurve in past the Hondas into the curves . :lol: :wink: :!: Pays to work the throttle a little . Ive always had Zero Idle on stops
but use more for speed adjustment than pulling up . Does ease the load on the old Triumph Drum Brakes though , if it has got away from you just a tad .

Jesus guys, I will never understand how even more riders don't die on the road when they admit such poor riding technique.....

Basic how to ride a motorcycle.....

Do not use your rear brake as the main brake, and when coupled with engine braking that also acts through the rear tyre, you will end up on your arse one day....

Accepting that very slow speeds and U turns need you to drag the rear brake (which is why combined systems on big heavy touring bikes are just stupid and encourage very lazy riding...

Even at modest speeds, start braking from the front, use up to 75% front with up to 25% rear balance in your braking, and of course you can use engine braking as a significant part of that 25%....

Why, well you start a transfer of weight to the front tyre, and that increases tyre grip at the front, proportionately reducing it at the rear....this is all effective road or race, rear brake or engine brake....things get extreme when racing...including available engine braking...and many racers prefer to use no rear brake rather than mess with it.

Weight over the front assists turning, even when you have released the brake the weight will not return to the rear until you open the throttle, at which time you rear will dig in and assist corner exit acceleration, with a nice feeling of balance to the bike now on power rather than off it. This applies road and race, race riding is just extreme, but good riding is pleasurable at all times.

Now, anybody want to discuss countersteering?

Now, anybody want to discuss countersteering?

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Sure, all day long, but under braking or under power, in good traction or nil traction, in a lean or full upright?.

Btw if loosing the front tire on leaned trail braking, ugh > a sharp jab/ PANIC STOMP to the rear brake for tire chirp/lock up can induce a hi side crash back upright > then *Stay Upright* aimed right off the edge too fast, to get back on front brake, in a condition it can actually effectively brake in time then release to lean sharp as can to finish the turn and carry on a lot wiser about silly trail braking down falls. Not being a racer my Firm Rule, never ever brake to matter, front or rear or both > while leaning any at all.

About counter steering. I don't think I've ever consciously done that, is it s ometinh w hich occurs more with modern superbikes ? My own Seeley is very nimble, and steers on the throttle. All you need do is think where you want it , and it is there. I think that if I intentionally tied to countersteer it, I would end up on the deck.

cmessenk said:

maylar said:

I've always blipped the throttle and match road speed while downshifting. Mostly to be sure the gearbox is free, as sometimes it's tough to go from 4th all the way down when the bike is at a stop. But the front brake is definitely my main control for slowing down.

Click to expand...

+1 on everything Maylar states. After so many thousands of miles and countless downshifts, I have mastered the "blip" and match the 4th to 3rd gear perfectly and w/o really thinking about it. Same goes from 3rd to 2nd...just a normal process used to slow for the planned stop. Of course, 2nd to 1st is always much more gentle, happening in the last 15 or so ft. of the stop...a smooth glide into 1st and ready for neutral. This process happens, of course, with a measured application of front & rear brakes...probably 70% front to 30% rear w/ more rear in the last 15 ft.....but then there's corners where that equation doesn't work...and sudden/panic stops...and....

OK...I"m done.

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I thought the gearbox was constant mesh, so what is the advantage of double-declutching? On a syncro or non-syncro box I understand but on a motorcycle gearbox?