engine braking

acotrel you drop many magic words to me. A damn Neutral chassis does pretty much self steer just by leaning bars to tip into turn rather than turning them. Depending on the surface speed loosen this will either automatically counter steer or flip into straight steering right off vertical stance. I don't think we have the same meaning of steering by throttle though as to me that mean breaking free but other wise yes I find throttle can help lean bike over or help hold in up at some angle better than let offs or over powering tire. Some reversals happen if going down hill compared to uphill too. later will re-open your self steering thread with my ponderings on encountering paint lines in various conditions. So think about that some as there is something revealing about them I don't quite understand but never brake harshly or drag rear on them much.

I always had the feeling and still do that when you approach a curve, I turn the steering a bit in the opposite direction, but more likely I just lean and the front end takes the lead with the wheel going in the other direction, if this is what is meant by counter steering. It's counter intuitive, but it seems to work. I may be completely off base here, but I've always felt that. It's more a matter of balance than it is of 'steering' and I'm sure it has to do with the front end geometry.

Dave
69S

Graphs showing the lean and steer angle response of an otherwise uncontrolled simplified model of a typical bike, traveling at a forward speed in its stable range (in this case 6 m/s), to a positive steer torque (to the right) that begins as an impulse and then remains constant. It causes an initial steer angle to the right, a lean to the left, and eventually a steady-state lean to the left, steer angle to the left, and thus a turn to the left.




Countersteering is required to turn any tandem 2-wheeled vehicle




A hypothetical curve on dry asphalt
Countersteering is the technique used by single-track vehicle operators, such as cyclists and motorcyclists, to initiate a turn toward a given direction by momentarily steering counter to the desired direction ("steer left to turn right"). To negotiate a turn successfully, the combined center of mass of the rider and the single-track vehicle must first be leaned in the direction of the turn, and steering briefly in the opposite direction causes that lean. This technique does not apply to conventional multiple-tracked vehicles such as trikes or sidecar equipped bicycles and motorcycles.

Having mostly ridden 2-strokes, sans much engine braking, I avoid it where possible, as a risky [mechanically & dynamically] needless technique more suitable to trucks than motorcycles. If you have any sensibility/mechanical sympathy you can blip down the box & stay in the correct rev band [as suggested by Matt] without abusive/surprising effects.
As for braking/countersteering, if you are hauling down hard on the front brake `til the tyre begins to squirm, feel the bar start wriggling snake-like in your hands, searching for slip angle, but be ready to ease off, if you lock-in a straight line its not a big deal, but when leaning over is a different matter.
As Hobot mentioned, the 'reflexive' [not a true reflex, but kinda feels like it] ability that comes from practice/training time provides for confidence in this area. I have seen racers using [front] mono-wheel hard braking to cut apex/set corner attitude [planting the back down in the right spot] likewise, but when asked state that they didn`t notice, & wouldn`t have believed it, but for photographic evidence.

acotrel said:

About counter steering. I don't think I've ever consciously done that, is it s ometinh w hich occurs more with modern superbikes ? My own Seeley is very nimble, and steers on the throttle. All you need do is think where you want it , and it is there. I think that if I intentionally tied to countersteer it, I would end up on the deck.

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The only thing I could truly steer on the throttle was a Mk1 Escort rally car, and I had adjustable bias brakes and hydraulic handbrake to help me get it into situations the throttle would get me out of.....

As for concious contersteering, I was taught about Gyroscopes in '72, on avionics training courses, and I had a refresher in '74 when I had a Commando Fastback, so I went out and rode hands off, pushing gently on the right bar to see the bike go right and vice versa....I have used it conciously and subconciously ever since....it is the best way to steer a big fully loaded touring bike whilst sitting nicely in the seat for hours on end....it works for racing and it works off road too.....Stefan Peterhansel used to win the Paris Dakar on bikes, when he converted to cars and was asked how different it was he said, 'well there is no difference really, except you steer the way you want to go, not the other way'....for a guy stood on the pegs for hours it is the only way to steer...

When racers move on the bike the weight the bars and cause countersteering conciously or not...whatever you think you do on any bike, you do not turn a bike by moving you weight...you turn it by the handlebar inputs you make as you move your weight...at very slow speed they may be direct inputs, as soon as that gyro is spinning it is by countersteering....

Watch Danny Pedrosa in MotoGP, or Stoner when he races again at Motegi.....these guys are lightweight, watch how when the front is unweghted as they exit corners and the force they are putting on the bars makes it look like they are using opposite lock.....racing is extreme....you do the same thing at 20 mph.....though some of you will insist you don't....

Counter steering is something I always assumed we all did to a certain degree whether we knew it or not. When changing lanes as an example.

As for braking with the engine, there is a big difference between downshifting when you come into a speed zone or are preparing for a stop and using the engine compression to slow down for a turn. I suspect that most of us, particularly if we haven't upgraded the brakes considerably use some engine compression when coming to a stop. How often do you have to shift into first gear after you are stopped? Only happens to me on an emergency stop.

As for giving the throttle a blip to increase RPM on a downshift, this is not the same as double clutching and while the gearbox may not need it to get the gears to mesh, I strongly suspect the chains attached to the gearbox will appreciate the effort. I realize that none of us would ever be out on the road with any piece of equipment that was past due for a rebuild, but as tolerances get greater in bushings and bearings, those shock loads will increase the amount of other wear experienced.

Russ

maylar said:

I've always blipped the throttle and match road speed while downshifting. Mostly to be sure the gearbox is free, as sometimes it's tough to go from 4th all the way down when the bike is at a stop. But the front brake is definitely my main control for slowing down.

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Been riding since 72' and driving manual shift cars since well before. It has never occurred to me to not try to match speeds when down shifting. It seems like this is the most benign way to treat the gearbox in both bikes and cars and really easy to do. If I have a false impression here I would really like to be put straight in this area. I do this even when grabbing some of the front brake and downshifting. Actually I don't even think about it when doing it.

Always downshift, of course, while slowing down but I'm really hesitant to use engine braking as a primary means of reducing speed especially on a continual basis since it clearly has to provide additional load on the entire engine and drive train which could certainly be absorbed by the brakes. It seems to me a lot easier to replace brake shoes and pads than work on the engine or the gearbox.

Also, I treat the rear brake the same as I would treat anything else that doesn't work all that well - with caution. I use it all the time but lets face it, even if you still have the original Lockheed front disc like I do, most of the stopping power is up front.

The front brake on a clean oil free track is nice. However, on the roads I drive on, I can't count on the gravel from someone's driveway being all over the road. And you know what happens when you hit that with the front brake fully engaged. This makes me very careful of using the front brake. Otherwise, I agree with most things posted here.

Dave
69S

Seriously Dave, not having a trained/practised quick reaction/reflexive best [front/& hard - if needful] braking response is far more risky than the potential of a bit of gravel, rain, oil ,coyote or what have you , & they are really only a problem if you are heeled over in a turn anyway.

As for counter steering, it's been my experience turning the bars in the opposite direction of the turn is what creates the lean in the direction of the turn. Switching lanes at speed is a perfect example.

Cranked right over on Trigonics , :shock: ( The Dunlop TT100s ) theres a fair bit of brakeing available IF balanced with the REAR dragging it Straight (used for in extremes )
Cow Shit & Water Coures , omly option is to lift (unload ) mand neutral throttle ( unload ) IF pressing on . . .

Counter Steer . Ride Along arms Folded . press R.H. bar end with one finger . Preferably have a L.H. corner imediately available .

Saw a 71/72 Bonne cruiseing downhill through the bends , arms folded. as a nipper . ( Knees & foot weight required to emulate . sudden changes in incline ( onto concrete bridge ) in turns may require
imediate hands on measures . Rideing cross handed ( rh on Left Grip & V c V ) requires disasociation from upper limbs & previous ( Knees / feet ) steering tecnique . On a push bike at speed , its astounding
how quickly you can get the hands back on the correct grips , if you hit a bump & the front wheel kicks up . Next step being landing on your head if you cock it up . :?

A bit of rear bias , weight wise . putting your weight on yr butt , on the lose , gets the slide at the rear .

Countersteering is required to turn any tandem 2-wheeled vehicle

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Aw cow doodoo, coutner steering will happen automatically on leaning a cycle, if not going fast enough to be similar to THE Gravel. if ya use body English to lean bike it will automatically straight steer just like at partking lot speeds. Try it and see. Any braking done while leaning is wasted effort to real braking and about worse state of traction and control to get it I can conceive. Just lean the bike and it will steer as it needs to but faster sharper if fork helped to push bike over, when not going so fast harsh it falls over by itself w/o aid of counter sterring. its an insane state on tarmac to enter straight steering rates so don't recommend it unless on a special Commando or off roading on about any cycle.

Clutchless shifting happens about automatically if going rather slow and easy OR balls to the wall hi rpm hi throttle snicks, in between better use clutch to ease the shifts clash.

Wes and I did a lot of very tight steep turns in the wet today and by golly I mostly used both brakes. IF using both brakes on good traction surfaces the front can lift rear out of traction so good practice to always use both as in good conditions only the front braking much any way.

As we've seen listed go easy on the engine braking or go all out and get used to the rear surprises and more frequent replacement items. Do realize if not about automatically knowing when clutch-less shifting is ripe, you've not mastered an ancient basic pilot skill that has no damage effect just drive train load damage easing.

hobot said:

Aw cow doodoo, coutner steering will happen automatically on leaning a cycle...........

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Nope, leaning will automatically happen if countersteering!....the force into the bar rotates 90 degrees of the rotation of the wheel teh resultant gyroscopic prgeession leans the wheel/bike.....leaning the wheel/bike creates the turning moment as teh now leant wheel acts like a cone.....

Now, leaning you body weight will cause forces through you connection to the bars that delivers the force to teh bars and subsequently the wheel/gyroscope....hence why most feel it is something they do not actively do.....

hobot said:

Countersteering is required to turn any tandem 2-wheeled vehicle

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Aw cow doodoo, coutner steering will happen automatically on leaning a cycle, if not going fast enough to be similar to THE Gravel. if ya use body English to lean bike it will automatically straight steer just like at partking lot speeds. Try it and see. Any braking done while leaning is wasted effort to real braking and about worse state of traction and control to get it I can conceive. Just lean the bike and it will steer as it needs to but faster sharper if fork helped to push bike over, when not going so fast harsh it falls over by itself w/o aid of counter sterring. its an insane state on tarmac to enter straight steering rates so don't recommend it unless on a special Commando or off roading on about any cycle.

Clutchless shifting happens about automatically if going rather slow and easy OR balls to the wall hi rpm hi throttle snicks, in between better use clutch to ease the shifts clash.

Wes and I did a lot of very tight steep turns in the wet today and by golly I mostly used both brakes. IF using both brakes on good traction surfaces the front can lift rear out of traction so good practice to always use both as in good conditions only the front braking much any way. (quote]

Re; “counter steering will happen automatically on leaning a cycle,”

Yes and….no.

A solo cycle will counter steer under normal circumcumises but this is largely dependent on the rider input, with brakes off and a light throttle coming out of a corner.
In certain situations I.E. going round a corner that at the same time goes down fairly steep hill, where the rider looses his/her bottle and shuts the throttle whilst banked over, two things will happened, all the weight of the bike will be transferred to the front tyre which if banked over far enough will slowly start to slide and you will not know or feel this until you kiss the tarmac, unless you press onto the bars for more counter steer, and/or open the throttle to restore bike weight balance between the front & rear tyres.
There are certain corners on the race track which sort out the men from the boys, the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca, both Paddock bend and into Bottom bend at Brands Hatch.

Here is Keith Code's interpretation. He fitted a second set of bars to a bike to demonstrate countersteering

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machiner ... achine.php

Late as usual, here's my ha'pennyworth:

I always blip on the downshift (except when I had a Guzzi Spada... that Did Not Work!), particularly with slow-shifting gearboxes like the Commando.
One thing I did find which was unique to the Commando with a 22T gearbox sprocket was this; letting the clutch out immediately after downshifting resulted in lots of rear-end activity of various forms
The ratios are just too far apart for 'normal' downshift work. I quickly learned to let the bike slow to very low revs before down-shifting, which pretty much rendered the engine braking to be eff all use anyway. Lowering to a 20T has pretty well eliminated this.
As for the brakes - I can never get enough front brake. Apart from using the rear to steady the bike into some gentle turns without the front end dipping I don't use it much and never rely on it, although it's always covered.

Steve Maney suggested to me that one of the big reasons the cranks let go on the DS mainshaft is the accelerated fatigue cycles due to engine braking.
Back in the Day, one of the reasons Ducati introduced the desmo valvetrain was to enable over-revving on the downshift to aid deceleration.

Scary!

Yoose guys should ride THE Gravel in total dry states the particles are electro statically repelling marbles or in the wet mud for nil traction at either end to learn how delicate to match power to tire traction or drag and not fall right down going easy as pie. Only chopper type riders style, flaunting logic and the law w/o a front brake should rely on rear brake only, and its only a matter of time till ya find out the hard way how lucky you've been so far. I've ridden righteous choppers down wet street slopes into major hwy intersections and Ms Peel w/o lost front brake to know what I warn of here. If you can't easy do clutch-less shifts in the correct manner-conditions or lift rear out of effective brake traction by front brake then realize you are a danger to your self and others and rather stupid to continue til fate proves my sad point of facts above. Rear brake only habit goes right alone with car driving using emergency brake only and always riding helmet-less habit. Tiny front patch is best we got to stop and its hardly able to matter in time of real need. In panic stops I've learn' to slam on rear brake just an instant before front to compress forks some so harsh front braking don't plunge them even more to let rear pass the front and out brake the front when as gets about hip level sideways.

daveh said:

Here is Keith Code's interpretation. He fitted a second set of bars to a bike to demonstrate countersteering

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machiner ... achine.php

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Good stuff there and he does go on to make the distinction between asphalt and dirt.

Kieth Code and me have gone head to head on the Fraud he is pushing on the world about the front tire steering the bike and is **THE PIVOTAL POINT OF BEING OF Ms Peel and Me ** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. ITs the Rear tire that turns a bike > just like its the whole flank of boat or airplanes that actually turn the craft, as rudder is only able to twist craft or aim the rear tire to effect enough road or fluid force to change load vectors to turn.

2. This is only half brained recognized by those seasoned enough to know to use some rear brake drag or some throttle to ease sharper low speed turns.

3. Code No Hands, No BS bike is a fraud from the get go and only done to save face of Kieth after he published his un-supportable statement the front is needed to steer. Code has a very strong set damper on the front forks and prevents the front from dolly wheeling to match the rear tire lean of pilot effort so fights the rear effects to turn and goes nutz0 as the elite racers trying to counter steer past its point of effective ness > to help tip rear tire against gyro force resistance.


http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safet ... bsbike.htm

4. Proof is watching stunt riders or circus unicycles turning on a dime with front in air or no front on bike at all LOL!

4a. Code also has a Slide Bike with wide out riggers he claims can not be hi sides so students can learn to slide 'safely' but me and couple others have hi sided it and almost hurt, so another piece of BS form a great sales man and teacher - up to his and elite cycle limits I'm leaving behind in the dust on Ms Peel or even his own too rigid balloon tire motorcycles.


http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ ... 16110.html

5. If Code just un-hooked the steering damper his No Hand bike it could be run around parking lot or on track hands off like I do, just not at very fast speeds or throttle as the turning force w/o front tire help is fairly low and slow to act compared to hands on forks helping to offset center of gravity support.

6. Last time out on Ms Peel after the 11,000+ rpm event took away her front lifting power at speed, was going 110 with huge windshield practicing hands off body English slams rear tire only turning in Mt sweepers marked 35 mph.

7. There are two ways to use rear brake to turn, one, by supermotard method on bikes w/o much power to induce a low side tip over better than forks and skew rear outward to thrust more into the turn and two, by inducing a low side by stupid dangerous counter productive front trail braking then STOMP rear brake for an instant of lock up to toss back up in nick of time high side save.

8. Regardless of how above sounds I have utmost respect for Keith Code for reasons other than riding teacher But most valuable thing Code stated that Completely Changed My style of riding fast, "No One Has Ever Crashed By Tossing a Bike Over or Picking It Up Too Fast" I took him at his word and kept flinging over and up faster-harder-harsher, Until I found he advice here is also flawed, IF YOU REMAIN STUCK IN False CONCEPTS OF WHAT THE FRONT IS FOR >
to hold front off ground when not in wheelie power hook up or to slow better than rear brake can.

9, Once free of above false hoods one finds there are 3 more ways around FUNNER as Master Code puts it. Kieth Code is a real Master to me in a number of ways and I highly recommend his school, till ya out grow his lesions.

1o. Ya can rely my message to Master Code, as I've not yet informed him of what he created by risking loss of his head instructor to almost fist cuffs yelling and red faced spitting conflict to let me back out again. But Code and I had prior agreement of why I was taking his class, to learn nothing else but what happens when tarmac is attacked to become as loose as THE Gravel, which just ain't possible as its easy as pie to do what ever stunts ya like at ease on tarmac.

11. Here's what happens to those who ain't yet had front tire truth sink in deeply w/o even trying to turn on it.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AacPOOIQzSM&feature=related[/video]

At the risk of continuing further off the topic of "engine braking", I don't see what a steering damper has to do with it.

I do see what Keith Code is saying and I do get counter steering and how it works and why it works.

Might be best for hobot to start a new thread - title it "Code No Hands, No BS bike is a fraud" or "I don't need no stinkin front wheel to steer" or something along those lines - just saying.