A hugh mistake

I was convinced i had done a good job.
I reassembled the new disc hub and spokes nipple in stainless steel with a green stamp Akront rim 19x185x40 but when I went to mount it I saw that was completely by 12 mm out of centre towards the pinch bolt.
I had to take it apart and replace 20 spokes had become short.
I was supposed to do the comparison before but I did pick up the enthusiasm.
I lost 5 days that I could use to replace the rest.
Ciao.
Piero

Yep the front disc brake Norton hub is likely the hardest one in motorcycle-dom to spoke right. I did mine mounted in forks to make sure rim ended up centered, which took a time or two to finally realize ya have to only do up the rotor side spokes almost completely tight and parallel with rotor, before even touching the opposite floppy loose spokes. Also found out ya can't get a spoke too tight unless it pulls out of rim or twists with the nipple or nipple strips out. A bicycle rim can suddenly pop into an unbrellia shape over tightened by not robust motorcycle rims.

I feel for you - I'm busy relacing my 850 Mk IIa and am finding the front wheel rather frustrating. There seems to be 2 different lacing patterns used on the front wheel. On my photos of the original steel rimmed wheel, the inner spokes run in different directions (i.e one side goes forwards and the other backwards) while I notice that the parts book and your wheel have both the inners running in the same direction. I initially tried this layout but after much faffing about and several attempts to get the wheel built, I've now gone back to the opposed layout. I only wish that Central Wheel had marked the rim to indicate which side was which - this would have saved me several failed attempts to built the wheel....

A good tip from another list though is to use a mix of copper lube paste and oil on the spoke thread and in the nipple seating areas. makes like quite a lot easier.

/Steve in Copenhagen.

SteveBorland said:

There seems to be 2 different lacing patterns used on the front wheel. On my photos of the original steel rimmed wheel, the inner spokes run in different directions (i.e one side goes forwards and the other backwards) while I notice that the parts book and your wheel have both the inners running in the same direction.

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Edit: The 1972 brochure also shows that pattern where both inners run the same way (and both outers the same) on a Commando Interstate front disc wheel. It does appear this pattern was used on some '72 models (and right for a Triumph front disc wheel) Other images of '72 disc wheels have the usual spoke pattern.
http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/A_Lin ... ndo-Ad.pdf
http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/A_Lin ... ndo_Ad.pdf

When the factory reversed the front wheel assembly on the 850 Mk.3 they also reversed the spoke pattern, so there are Edit: three spoke patterns for Commando front disc wheels.

If Piero used that other wheel in the photo as a pattern, then it may not be an original rim and could be laced incorrectly, as the rim has a 2 x 2 dimple pattern and some spokes look bowed-unless it's a trick of the camera? Piero's last photo shows it's the 'disc side' (furthest from camera) inner and outer spokes are the ones both facing the wrong direction.Edit: However that pattern may not be wrong as I first thought.

I have not made a hugh mistake but a very very great hugh mistake!!!!

Well, i will have in my mind your notice and i will copy the standard whell that i have!!!

I hope i can reuse the same spokes, is not very easy to find SS here.

Please, could you kindly control if i mount well the rear whell??, maybe not but seems to be on line: the pictures are in other my topic named "step by step"

Thanks a lot.

Ciao.

Piero

pierodn said:

Please, could you kindly control if i mount well the rear whell??, maybe not but seems to be on line: the pictures are in other my topic named "step by step"

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Yes it looks to be in line with the frame.

Some spokes maybe look slightly bowed, but again it could be a trick of the camera lens?

pierodn said:

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Dear Les,
You are in right, some spokes are slightly bowed because the holes was not very in line, the rims may be was drilled for Harley hub.
Do you think it is a great problem and in this case i must replace drilling Better the holes in line.
Thanks.
Ciao.
Piero

pierodn said:

some spokes are slightly bowed because the holes was not very in line, the rims may be was drilled for Harley hub.

Click to expand...

:shock: :shock:

pierodn said:

Do you think it is a great problem and in this case i must replace drilling Better the holes in line.

Click to expand...

Rims are drilled (or punched) so the angle and position of the holes correspond exactly to the hub dimensions and offset of each particular application.

If you use rims that have been drilled for another motorcycle then the rim holes, as we have seen, are likely to be of alignment, causing the spokes to bow which may lead to premature spoke breakage.

Bowed spokes are now permanent feature of Ms Peel's frustrating lacing learning curve balls * even with all new and properly ordered and rotor side labeled Excel Al non flanged rim + SS necked spokes/nipple and lube. I'm told *and apparently true, that No one has the equipment to properly drill the unusual nipple angles the Norton front disc rim needs, so there will be some bowing of at least one row of spokes no matter what. I had 2 fairly long pow pows with Mr. Buchanan himself, 1st on their error in spoke lenghts, discovered After wheel mostly done and 2nd finding the rim angles bowed some the spokes. I showed them photo's with straight edge comparison to be told by Mr. Buchanan and by Ben English in NY who's well known shop authority on Commando wheels rims spokes and tires. Give a few big cycle wheel shops and MX bike wheel builders a ping to see if they don't agree, its mostly a cosmetic issue unless bowed more than a few degree's.

Another reason I refer to Commando's as a real man's motorcycle, because it so often throws me into infantile confusions or tantrums. The onset usually starts at first by a blank un-comprehending slack jaw starring...

Well, Can I give a smooth  to the holesv to search the best axis on line and straight possible?.

But, I already i dont know why the rim was completely by 12 mm out of centre

Ciao.
Piero

hobot said:

there will be some bowing of at least one row of spokes no matter what.

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One set of front disc wheel spokes does require straightening (the L/H inners) after fitting .

Details of the front wheel tensioning procedure and how to align the bowed spokes (with a hammer and drift) is covered by 1972 Service Release N81.

Disc brake wheel spokes.
1972 Commando with disc brake.
Worldwide (Trade only)
The spoking arrangement of the disc brake
type of front wheel requires periodic attention
to correct possible loss of spoke tension. To
eliminate the need for regular attention, the
following technique which is now applied to all
disc brake wheels at the factory should be
undertaken at the earliest opportunity (prior to
delivery where possible):
1) With all spokes lightly tensioned, tighten
left hand side inboard spokes.
2) Tighten left hand side outboard spokes.
3) As shown in the illustration below, set the
left hand side inboard spokes straight
(shaded heavily) by tapping the bowed
portion of the spokes with a 1/2 lb. (.225Kg)
hammer and drift 3" (76.2mm) from the centre
of the spoke head.

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4) Retighten the left hand side inboard spokes.
5) Tighten the right hand side inboard spokes.
6) Tighten the right hand side outboard spokes.
7) Recheck wheel for truth and align as necessary.
Realignment of the left side inboard spokes as
directed will tension the wheels and minimise
spoke deflection, making further periodic checking
of tension unnecessary.

Click to expand...

LAB refreshing not to be told I'm FOS on this and even encouraged to get out an appropriate hammer. So even Norton rim suppliers couldn't drill em good enough, ugh. i tightened mine to the max so don't know if good idea to wallow rim holes out much.

Another good tip that I have seen in one of my very old mags, is the 'Anderson' (I think) wheel building jig. It consists of some thick plywood at least the diameter of the wheel plus a good 2 or three inches over. Place the known old wheel and hub complete with spokes onto the plywood. It does not matter which way up providing that you you place the new rim and hub the same way when you go to lace up. Then stack small pieces of plywood at 12, 3, 6, 9 O'clock positions under the rim and hub, ensuring that those sat under the hub and rim have shoulders to centralise the rim rim to each other though. Secure the pieces into place and and now you have a jig that has recorded the offset for that wheel. Lacing up as per the pattern for the wheel in question and providing the old rim was not badly distorted you will now have a wheel. The good thing with this is that once you have it it can be easily re-used.
Not tried it myself, but seems good enough for the amateur wheel builder, I would imagine pro builders would be find just as easy and quick with just the measurements and a spindle.

hobot said:

LAB refreshing not to be told I'm FOS on this and even encouraged to get out an appropriate hammer. So even Norton rim suppliers couldn't drill em good enough, ugh.

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Actually, I don't think it's anything to do with the angle of the rim drilling at all? The bend seems to be caused by the head angle of the L/H inners (inner R/H on Mk3) being slightly wrong. I really don't buy this "can't be drilled (steel production rim holes are normally punched) correctly" theory.

Ok LAB - I didn't know nothing about spoke/rim issues till running into front wheel issues that no web site nor famous vendors could/would identify or help solve. Ben English in NY worked a Brit cycle shop a good while and wheels were a big part of his job. He's the one who told me the current rims don't quite match the Norton angles but I can well believe the bend angle being the main boo boo. I mounted wheels in Peel forks and swing arm so no measuring issues to deal with on where the rim was centered too. Front one took me like 3 times around, 1st with wrong spoke set, 2nd with wrong tightening sequence, 3rd was a charm, essentially nipping up disc side spokes almost to full tension before touching the opposite side to pull rim over to center in forks. Another worry for me was how tight to tension - till reading up on it to find ya can't really get spokes too tight unless pulling out of rim or stripping treads. I used a small adjustable wrench snugged on each nipple as no way a spoke wrench could hold the torque i applied and then had to Whack the spoke end to get tiny turns to develop the fullest tension I could, watching dial guage to prevent rim from setting up with waves in its shape. Then many many round and rounds tapping spokes, watching dial and loosing/tightening till about same tone in each row/length of spokes. I also shocked the nipple ends hard with wrench end as I spun wheel to jossle slack out, which drove wife crazy at times with Peel in our living room. Next learning curve for me will be fitting an 16" rear rim to non Norton hub, then hope never ever to have to do it again.

Hi Sir,
Sorry, but who is Peel?.
Ciao.
Pieo

pierodn said:

Sorry, but who is Peel?.

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It's more of a 'what' than a 'who'. :wink:

pierodn said:

Hi Sir,
Sorry, but who is Peel?.
Ciao.
Pieo

Click to expand...

Peel is bigger than life itself.
Peel =
A personal shrine of a Norton "Combat" Commando dedicate to "Emma Peel", a character played by Diana Rigg from the 1960's British television spy series "The Avengers".

Did I get that right Steve?

pierodn, this is the doorway into the delicate psyche of hobot "the literate and polished".

Let me add some info. This is on drum brake wheels which don't have any (drastic) offset. I got rims and spokes from Walridge, UK made rims, not sure about the spokes. Rims looked exactly like the WM2 originals. Removed spokes from front rim and hub. Installed new spokes in new rims front wheel. No problemo. Everything went smoothly and after about 3 hours I had a rim that was well under 1mm run out, axial and radial.

Now on to the rear, which appeared the same (drum brake). Funny thing was the spokes had to take a bend to get them inserted into the rim holes from the hub. Now this is the same set as the front as far as I know. Got the spoke nuts on and the spokes were all bent. Ugh. What's going on? Sent Mike an email about why the rear spokes don't want to fit into the rim and hub. It was a real problem getting it together. He replied that sometimes the neck on the spokes need to be 'adjusted', or bent so the spokes don't point out away from the rim, if you get my meaning. That was all it took was to bend the necks on the spokes at a little sharper angle so the spokes pointed more towards the rim, and everything went together hunk dory, just like the front.

What was happening was the end of the spoke necks were binding in the hub holes and not allowing the spoke to follow a straight line to the rim. Once I bent the neck at a slightly sharper angle, the spokes went right into the rim.

I don't know if this is the issue here, but there could also be a problem if the rim holes are not drilled to work with a specific hub, I can believe that.

Dave
69S

Excuse me,
why when I squeeze the two spindle nuts on the rear wheel (that is a ES 850 mounted on his original swing harm) braking the wheel spins?.
Yet it is fitted as manual says.
Thank you.
Ciao.
Piero