Sump plug debris (2013)

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enekoizagirre

enekoizagirre

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Jun 8, 2010
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Hi,
after a complete engine rebuild (new pistons an rings, rebored cilinder, valves, guides, seats...), a loose valve guide, 5000 km and two oil changes, is this normal?

Sump plug debris (2013)


Thanks
 
No. Not normal. Looks like someone did not clean the swarf from the machining.

Did you get anything from the last oil changes ? Any noises ?

Hopefully no damage done. I would check oil pressure and tappet clearance before I rode too far.
 
A bit bigger size swarf for normal but not too bad to worry about unless it continues that amount of collection on next oil change. But then what ya gonna do, tear it all down or just run it till it really needs attention, which may be as long as anyone. A light fuzz is about 1/32" thick is normal between oil changes of ~10000-2000 miles.
 
I don't get any of that on my 850. Something is wrong. Are your main bearings about to crap out.
 
The picture shows no detail,it looks to have a 'superblend roller stuck to the plug,that's probably not good.

Where do metallic / sticky bits come from in an engine (compared to a transmission) if that's what the picture is trying to show.
Valve train ?
Camshaft ?
Chains sawing cases ?
Main bearings (unlikely to be grindings)
Crap left in oil passages and not cleaned out from rebuild.
Machining and honing of cylinder (unlikely) external operation.
Fitting of guides and cutting seats (unlikely) external operation
Oil pump ?
etc ?

??
 
No. The camera needs to be closer so as we can actually see. Plus the glass is almost empty. I would refill it with more scotch after seeing that plug-swarfage.
 
Torontonian said:
No. The camera needs to be closer so as we can actually see. Plus the glass is almost empty. I would refill it with more scotch after seeing that plug-swarfage.
Click to expand...

Sorry for your troubles Enekoizagirre, but that made me laugh out loud :D
 
we are asking you for both a real good clear close up of the sump plug to look at

are you running an oil filter?

can you drain the oil that is associated with that sump pull and put the oil through your wife's spaggetee strainer to tell us if any bits and shavings left in there?

how about the oil filter itself, do you still have it, how about cutting it up and look for metal bits?
 
Yes would be educational to know if there's actual chips being collected or just fine dust standing up in the flux lines. Filters catch the chips which could block a passage but way to big to get in bearing space but the dust can which is passed though regular engine filters. Not to worry most of us just run em like that till something stops us.
 
Yes a closer look would be helpful.

Since magnetic fragments are ferrous metal it won't be aluminum, bronze, babbit or stellite from lifter face.
Stellite alloy is a completely non-magnetic and corrosion-resistant cobalt alloy.
The Babbit and bronze layers on the steel body of the shell big end bearing won't show but if they have worn down to the shell maybe shell fragments but that would probably be causing a real knock and also tear up the crank bearing surfaces. I actually doubt if this is the issue.
Gear teeth in oil pump are maybe bronze, and whats on the magnet could have some resemblance to teeth.
If possible confirming oil pressure ok should help understand if gear teeth.

So maybe cam face is my best guess, so putting dial gauge on pushrods to assess the lift of cams may be easiest way to gauge that possibility.
If checks out ok I'd run it for another hundred miles or so and check again.
If nothing I'd let it go, however if more raggedly looking stuff I'd be inclined to tear it down before more damage is done.
 
I'd say the ferric dust comes from rings in bores and the chips from bearings and cam lobes anything else mentioned would be created past the mag plug so would mostly settle in oil tank or crank trap sludge. I've monitored mine in two Combats and saw similar until I began going straight to 2000ish rpm on every cold start up and now barely see any dust covering between oil changes. At decent rpm everything should be surfing on oil w/o contact so start ups likely main source. Try it and see so maybe we all can learn something. Shouldn't worry much about it as there is so very little warning of seizure destruction anyway just let it surprise ya as traditional - otherwise run till smokes and leaks too much for public consumption as likely the gear box will give up first.
 
It's a mobile picture, so the quality is not the best. The chips are not big, they're something like thin layers of metal.

I've rebuilt the engine after changing the guides and started the bike yesterday, everything looks good.

I'll ride it a couple of hundred km or so and check again, we´ll see. If I have to rebuild the engine again it won't be just a glass of scotch...

Sump plug debris (2013)
 
When I put my jugs back on my Norton, hangon I mean barrels, my friend Paul and myself had quite a few of them jugs after the bit of work and every thing was right, just remember have the beers after each section of work stages.

Ashley
 
Economising on thread titles, I pull this old one up to ask yr opinions about what was found after pulling the large nut with strainer from the sump.
It looks and feels like hard plastic of 2 different thicknesses, .75mm (.030") and 1.5mm ((.06").
It had some curvature, fragments indicating 2 or 3" diameter.
Any ideas?
Sump plug debris (2013)
 
Looks like some kind of old epoxy glue (Arraldite / JB weld etc) to me.

Was there any such use of it inside the motor at all?
 
Thanks for the suggestion, ya.
It bends a little without cracking, which I don't think cd be done with old epoxy.
I sent the pic to Phil Radford, who cd not imagine what it might be. I've not had the cases apart myself, so it's possible someone did a repair of some sort long ago, or (very unlikely) we dropped a pc of something into the case when the barrels came off for boring.
All cleaned out now, anyway. When someday the oil pump comes off, I'll shoot some solvent and air down the oilway, make sure the passage is clean.
I get good oil pressure, so I'm not too worried, and I guess it'll be just one of those little mysteries of life...
 
Could it be a bearing cage?

If that were me, and I hadn't had it apart and didn't know anybody else who had, just to be on the safe I think I'd invest in a cheap endoscope to see if there is any bodged repair inside the cases.

Cheers,

cliffa.
 
Having watched several complete tear down videos with lots of details, I cannot recall seeing any plastic components anywhere in the crankcase. Most likely debris is from something dropped in during some work. Thought maybe a foreign object gone into oil tank, but there are mesh screens on the pickup line to the engine. Could the breather pipe have ingested the item and dumped it into sump where it's rattled about for yrs?
 
Thanks, you guys.
Are there plastic bearing cages in the crankcase? What wd I see with an endoscope?
I did have to replace the oil tank some time ago, which had cracked at the base, but I'm sure it was thoroughly cleaned out before going into service.

Could it be part of the anti-wet-sump valve? It looks okay on the outside. And don't tell Jim C I have this valve, please!

It's all put back together, and showing 55 lbs at start-up, no leaks, so I'm not much inclined to worry further, unless...
 
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