Changed the title of this thread at one point because is turned to shit and got off topic. Originally started as a thread about this bike:
http://www.gianniniracing.com/nortonad.htm
http://www.gianniniracing.com/nortonad.htm
Useless assorted Norton musings.....
- Thread starter beng
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Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
I concur, 260 pounds, I don't think so. I have been weighing all my parts just to see as I go. And 260 seems a bit unobtainable and still have the bike hold together. The front wheel alone on that bike has to be close to 25 pounds, the brake disc isn't eaven lightened. Start adding up the pounds of the known assemblies and you're close to the 260. Not to get started on the 100HP claim, that's not possible without assistance and exotic fuels. T.C. was getting about 145hp out of each engine on methanol, as a cakeling monster running a few minutes at a time. 100HP sustained for numerous laps, doubt it.
I concur, 260 pounds, I don't think so. I have been weighing all my parts just to see as I go. And 260 seems a bit unobtainable and still have the bike hold together. The front wheel alone on that bike has to be close to 25 pounds, the brake disc isn't eaven lightened. Start adding up the pounds of the known assemblies and you're close to the 260. Not to get started on the 100HP claim, that's not possible without assistance and exotic fuels. T.C. was getting about 145hp out of each engine on methanol, as a cakeling monster running a few minutes at a time. 100HP sustained for numerous laps, doubt it.
Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Village Bike has been discussed before here
norton-from-australia-t5731-45.html
Apart from what seems to be outlandish claims of hp, looks like a nice bike.
Village Bike has been discussed before here
norton-from-australia-t5731-45.html
Apart from what seems to be outlandish claims of hp, looks like a nice bike.
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Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Well 260 pounds IS approaching the lower limit that can be achieved and depending on the bore/stroke it can reach 100HP at the crankshaft (not RWHP).
Herb Becker is currently stripping more weight off the 750 Seeley so we shall see - last weigh in was at 285 lbs (with oil) and plenty of opportunities to reduce weight. We changed out the front end and dropped considerable weight there.
Dyno pulls of 85-87 RWHP were common with the last build of the ultra short stroke so allowing only 13-15 HP friction loss is in the ball park for a 100HP engine.
The advertiser is stating "well over 100 HP" which is a bucket of Monkey Splooge unless on Methanol, Nitro or Nitrous. We can squeek more than we are getting now from our bike on gasoline with a few engine configuration "tricks" but not much more as we are hitting some practical walls.
As for the picture of the bike in somenone's drvieway in Montclair, NJ; might as well be a picture of it layed on it's side along some gravel road in Arkansas.
Well 260 pounds IS approaching the lower limit that can be achieved and depending on the bore/stroke it can reach 100HP at the crankshaft (not RWHP).
Herb Becker is currently stripping more weight off the 750 Seeley so we shall see - last weigh in was at 285 lbs (with oil) and plenty of opportunities to reduce weight. We changed out the front end and dropped considerable weight there.
Dyno pulls of 85-87 RWHP were common with the last build of the ultra short stroke so allowing only 13-15 HP friction loss is in the ball park for a 100HP engine.
The advertiser is stating "well over 100 HP" which is a bucket of Monkey Splooge unless on Methanol, Nitro or Nitrous. We can squeek more than we are getting now from our bike on gasoline with a few engine configuration "tricks" but not much more as we are hitting some practical walls.
As for the picture of the bike in somenone's drvieway in Montclair, NJ; might as well be a picture of it layed on it's side along some gravel road in Arkansas.
Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Strangely enough, I have seen the VBNR Norton at a race meet, probably about 15 years ago, and it was FAST. They claimed then to have the fastest race 750 around, back then, and that was certainly no BS, that day anyway.. Can't remember who was riding it though, and if he was any good (the fastest bike doesn't always win, as any race afficionado will well know). Whether 100+ hp was involved is anyones guess.
P.S. Someone got to see inside their workshop at an open day, and was very impressed.
They were doing what Steve Maney does, before he got there ??
Are they still going though, haven't heard of them in ages - how old is that article ?
Strangely enough, I have seen the VBNR Norton at a race meet, probably about 15 years ago, and it was FAST. They claimed then to have the fastest race 750 around, back then, and that was certainly no BS, that day anyway.. Can't remember who was riding it though, and if he was any good (the fastest bike doesn't always win, as any race afficionado will well know). Whether 100+ hp was involved is anyones guess.
P.S. Someone got to see inside their workshop at an open day, and was very impressed.
They were doing what Steve Maney does, before he got there ??
Are they still going though, haven't heard of them in ages - how old is that article ?
Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Well maybe they do mean crank horsepower, but if someone got that level of power out of a Norton twin, I would doubt it's quality, useability and reliability.
Then again we are not really talking about a real Norton engine or motorcycle anyway, but a newly manufactured and redesigned motorcycle based on the originals.
Add the cost to that and these sort of bikes do not really have anything to do with 99.9% of the Norton owners out there......
Well maybe they do mean crank horsepower, but if someone got that level of power out of a Norton twin, I would doubt it's quality, useability and reliability.
Then again we are not really talking about a real Norton engine or motorcycle anyway, but a newly manufactured and redesigned motorcycle based on the originals.
Add the cost to that and these sort of bikes do not really have anything to do with 99.9% of the Norton owners out there......
Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
You could equally say that though about the modern breed of race 'Manx Nortons', where almost everything has been improved and a genuine bike is not even in the race. Or the 6 second top fuel 'Harleys' out at the 1/4 mile - any resemblance between 2000+ hp and the road bikes is purely co-incidental ??
beng said:
You could equally say that though about the modern breed of race 'Manx Nortons', where almost everything has been improved and a genuine bike is not even in the race. Or the 6 second top fuel 'Harleys' out at the 1/4 mile - any resemblance between 2000+ hp and the road bikes is purely co-incidental ??
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Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Well my Seeley 750 ultra short stroke is close to 100 HP at the crankshaft and it is certainly rideable and raceable.....goes very fast and faster still with a skilled rider. According to Kenny Cummings who raced it a few times it pulls like an 89mm stroke race engine to 7,000 rpm and then continues to pull for another 1,500 rpm making even more power
Then according to your above logic Peter Williams et al were not really building and riding "real Norton engine or motorcycle anyway". Uhhhh, opinions will certainly vary here. Modifications are the natural progression from a street bike to a race bike - it is all a matter of degree. They all could have been making this type of power "in the day" if they had the time and money. In other words, if Norton stayed in the game they would have figured it out and/or more likely morphed into something more modern and more competitive (again, assuming more time, money and vision).
Well I was fascinated with getting more out of a bike based upon what I read and had seen. The old story goes "speed costs you money - how fast you want to go". Your view of costs are myopic. Costs were covered in another thread where building the bike is only one part of the whole cost package; there are entry fees, travel, lodging, hospital bills, fuel, tires, race PPE, vacation time, time to build the bike, time to race prepare/repair the bike, divorce lawyers, angry neighbors etc.
The cost of the bike is a fart in a wind strom.
beng said:
Well my Seeley 750 ultra short stroke is close to 100 HP at the crankshaft and it is certainly rideable and raceable.....goes very fast and faster still with a skilled rider. According to Kenny Cummings who raced it a few times it pulls like an 89mm stroke race engine to 7,000 rpm and then continues to pull for another 1,500 rpm making even more power
beng said:
Then according to your above logic Peter Williams et al were not really building and riding "real Norton engine or motorcycle anyway". Uhhhh, opinions will certainly vary here. Modifications are the natural progression from a street bike to a race bike - it is all a matter of degree. They all could have been making this type of power "in the day" if they had the time and money. In other words, if Norton stayed in the game they would have figured it out and/or more likely morphed into something more modern and more competitive (again, assuming more time, money and vision).
beng said:
Well I was fascinated with getting more out of a bike based upon what I read and had seen. The old story goes "speed costs you money - how fast you want to go". Your view of costs are myopic. Costs were covered in another thread where building the bike is only one part of the whole cost package; there are entry fees, travel, lodging, hospital bills, fuel, tires, race PPE, vacation time, time to build the bike, time to race prepare/repair the bike, divorce lawyers, angry neighbors etc.
The cost of the bike is a fart in a wind strom.
Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Right, covered here: most-common-commando-model-t12836.html
99% of Norton owners do not race their bikes on a track or rev them even to 7K rpm, if they run them at all they are street riders enjoying them as street bikes, practical transportation or show collectibles. They do not need Maney cases and fullauto heads etc..
Rohan: Some of the modern Manx race bikes in top classes have almost no parts useable to maintain an original production Manx for sure.
If the builders and owners are not interested in doing anything historical at all, there is nothing wrong with that as long as they don't try to pass what they are doing off as the 1960's or earlier, they have created their own little world.
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Right, covered here: most-common-commando-model-t12836.html
99% of Norton owners do not race their bikes on a track or rev them even to 7K rpm, if they run them at all they are street riders enjoying them as street bikes, practical transportation or show collectibles. They do not need Maney cases and fullauto heads etc..
Rohan: Some of the modern Manx race bikes in top classes have almost no parts useable to maintain an original production Manx for sure.
If the builders and owners are not interested in doing anything historical at all, there is nothing wrong with that as long as they don't try to pass what they are doing off as the 1960's or earlier, they have created their own little world.
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Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Agreed. Yet would you agee that Fullauto heads and Maney cases are a blessing to all Norton enthusiats (directly and indirectly) as it supplements the pool of useable parts and preserves the pool of original parts? I have seen many a Norton original component modified and then blown to smithereens.
I think you have jumped the gun on this particular thread as no one has tried to pass off what they are doing (including the Village Bike) as 1960's or earlier. But you must acknowledge that a key piece of the performance potential of a Norton (new, old or whatever) is the unique cylinder head design concept which goes back a few decades before the 1960's - correct?
The relevant points to be made here are that a 750 Norton (replica) engine is capable of road race reliable 100 HP at the crankshaft and it is feasible to get a Norton/after market road race frame combination to safely come in at around 260 lbs - all with a lot of work. I can say with confidence that the only things original on an engine such as this would be the timing cover, maybe the oil pump and cam drive, cylinder head casting, rocker covers, rocker cover studs and a few other odds and ends.
The Village Bike description states the crankcase was made from billet.
beng said:
Agreed. Yet would you agee that Fullauto heads and Maney cases are a blessing to all Norton enthusiats (directly and indirectly) as it supplements the pool of useable parts and preserves the pool of original parts? I have seen many a Norton original component modified and then blown to smithereens.
beng said:
I think you have jumped the gun on this particular thread as no one has tried to pass off what they are doing (including the Village Bike) as 1960's or earlier. But you must acknowledge that a key piece of the performance potential of a Norton (new, old or whatever) is the unique cylinder head design concept which goes back a few decades before the 1960's - correct?
The relevant points to be made here are that a 750 Norton (replica) engine is capable of road race reliable 100 HP at the crankshaft and it is feasible to get a Norton/after market road race frame combination to safely come in at around 260 lbs - all with a lot of work. I can say with confidence that the only things original on an engine such as this would be the timing cover, maybe the oil pump and cam drive, cylinder head casting, rocker covers, rocker cover studs and a few other odds and ends.
The Village Bike description states the crankcase was made from billet.
Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
100 useable horsepower with an original Norton head casting on a 750? I hope you don't mind if I wait for this to come from a source I have a little faith in....
And I would not agree that fullauto heads and Maney cases etc. are a blessing at all. There is a much simpler and more practical way that vintage racing can be done that will not continue turning it into a millionaire's sport.
1. Limit the carburetors used in vintage racing to the original carburetors and choke size that the bike came with when produced. So in a pre-1968 racing class, a Norton 750 would have a 30mm Amal Concentric or a stock spec monobloc etc.
2. Limit cams to production profiles and springs to stock rate. Production boreXstrokes only. Saves engines, gearboxes etc..
3. Drum brakes only that are correct for the period. No disk brakes in pre-73 racing classes except on those bikes that had them as OEM equipment, and then they must be OEM parts or direct replacements to original specs. 1967 and earlier classes will use original equipment single leading shoe brakes unless originally supplied with something else.
4. Limit compression to 9:1 so everyone can use pump gas and make it easy on engine parts.
5. Transmissions to original spec, all parts interchangeable with originals and number of speeds limited to original amount.
6. Tires with original tread patterns used in the 60s, like Avon Gp and Speedmaster etc. Lessens load on chassis and keeps speeds down.
7. Historical documentation showing your type of bike was used in the type of competition in the era. If someone wants to run a particular engine/chassis combo, then they can prove it is historical or keep it on the trailer.
8. Real historical bikes will be granted exceptions. If someone wants to bring a real old race bike in and can document it ran with special modifications, like the Al Gunter disk brake Buddy Parriott used on his Manx in the early 1960's , then great.
Okay, now you are vintage racing.
Not making so much power, not using up parts so quickly and eliminating the incentive to develop ridiculously expensive parts that have nothing to do with what was raced in the 60s and earlier. The emphasis can be more on history and riding.
Dances with Shrapnel said:
100 useable horsepower with an original Norton head casting on a 750? I hope you don't mind if I wait for this to come from a source I have a little faith in....
And I would not agree that fullauto heads and Maney cases etc. are a blessing at all. There is a much simpler and more practical way that vintage racing can be done that will not continue turning it into a millionaire's sport.
1. Limit the carburetors used in vintage racing to the original carburetors and choke size that the bike came with when produced. So in a pre-1968 racing class, a Norton 750 would have a 30mm Amal Concentric or a stock spec monobloc etc.
2. Limit cams to production profiles and springs to stock rate. Production boreXstrokes only. Saves engines, gearboxes etc..
3. Drum brakes only that are correct for the period. No disk brakes in pre-73 racing classes except on those bikes that had them as OEM equipment, and then they must be OEM parts or direct replacements to original specs. 1967 and earlier classes will use original equipment single leading shoe brakes unless originally supplied with something else.
4. Limit compression to 9:1 so everyone can use pump gas and make it easy on engine parts.
5. Transmissions to original spec, all parts interchangeable with originals and number of speeds limited to original amount.
6. Tires with original tread patterns used in the 60s, like Avon Gp and Speedmaster etc. Lessens load on chassis and keeps speeds down.
7. Historical documentation showing your type of bike was used in the type of competition in the era. If someone wants to run a particular engine/chassis combo, then they can prove it is historical or keep it on the trailer.
8. Real historical bikes will be granted exceptions. If someone wants to bring a real old race bike in and can document it ran with special modifications, like the Al Gunter disk brake Buddy Parriott used on his Manx in the early 1960's , then great.
Okay, now you are vintage racing.
Not making so much power, not using up parts so quickly and eliminating the incentive to develop ridiculously expensive parts that have nothing to do with what was raced in the 60s and earlier. The emphasis can be more on history and riding.
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Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Wait all you want, and hold your breath while you do it
For those interested in learning the subject stock Norton cylinder head casting is heavily modified with porting and welding including creating a bathtub shaped combustion chamber to up compression and increase compactness of the combustion chamber.
You have just described NASCAR bubba :lol: Not using up parts so quickly.......that is adorable.
Obviously you have not been around real racing :lol:
We should all don our Fez's and do the parade laps on Main Street as you are suggesting. We can even call it American Flacid Parade Motorcycles Association (AFPMA).
And again you are drifting off topic so re read the thread above and as I have stated in other threads; start a new topic on the virtues of originality versus current vintage/historic racing and see who shows up to contribute or see who even looks.
The bike weights and 100 HP at the crank is achievable with a highly modified Norton cylinder head and after market and/or custom parts. Those "in the know" understand this; those with an open mind will be interested in hearing this.
So again I invite you to go off and retrieve that bucket of steam.
beng said:
Wait all you want, and hold your breath while you do it
For those interested in learning the subject stock Norton cylinder head casting is heavily modified with porting and welding including creating a bathtub shaped combustion chamber to up compression and increase compactness of the combustion chamber.
beng said:
You have just described NASCAR bubba :lol: Not using up parts so quickly.......that is adorable.
Obviously you have not been around real racing :lol:
We should all don our Fez's and do the parade laps on Main Street as you are suggesting. We can even call it American Flacid Parade Motorcycles Association (AFPMA).
And again you are drifting off topic so re read the thread above and as I have stated in other threads; start a new topic on the virtues of originality versus current vintage/historic racing and see who shows up to contribute or see who even looks.
The bike weights and 100 HP at the crank is achievable with a highly modified Norton cylinder head and after market and/or custom parts. Those "in the know" understand this; those with an open mind will be interested in hearing this.
So again I invite you to go off and retrieve that bucket of steam.
Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Well everything starts with an idea.
I added single leading shoe brakes for the 1967 and earlier class.
I agree that it would be hard to find guys who know enough about old bikes to do the job scrutineering.
I know an old guy who raced in the AMA in the 60s. Then raced in AHRMA for 30 years with a Norton and BSA with SLS brakes and never broke one major engine component in either bike, won a lot of races too, but he was smart, and an adult, like some other guys:
Well everything starts with an idea.
I added single leading shoe brakes for the 1967 and earlier class.
I agree that it would be hard to find guys who know enough about old bikes to do the job scrutineering.
I know an old guy who raced in the AMA in the 60s. Then raced in AHRMA for 30 years with a Norton and BSA with SLS brakes and never broke one major engine component in either bike, won a lot of races too, but he was smart, and an adult, like some other guys:
jseng1 said:I raced this crank in my 850 monoshock. Sold it to Ken Canaga and then he raced it for awhile. Now its in my streetbike with the lightweight pistons/longer rods. All this after the original owner was finished with it. It has a lightened flywheel and radiused and polished PTO shaft. Weighs 20lbs. I used to rev it into valve float range when I raced. I've magnifluxed it and there are no cracks. But I always used lightweight pistons of one version or another.
Jim
Good to see the lightweight pistons and bushless rods in the post above by "RoadScholar" - should be a smooth running motor.
grandpaul
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Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Yep. Barber's Vintage Festival is under change orders from AHRMA to limit entries to SEVEN HUNDRED. let's say 25% are multiple class entries (probably optimistic), that's still over FIVE hundred. So, how many days, and how many guys do you suppose it would take to get them all through just ONE round of scrutineering? Never mind TWo days of a 4-day race weekend! (2 day practice, 2 days racing)
beng said:
Yep. Barber's Vintage Festival is under change orders from AHRMA to limit entries to SEVEN HUNDRED. let's say 25% are multiple class entries (probably optimistic), that's still over FIVE hundred. So, how many days, and how many guys do you suppose it would take to get them all through just ONE round of scrutineering? Never mind TWo days of a 4-day race weekend! (2 day practice, 2 days racing)
Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
If you want to go strictly historic racing, seem to recall that NZ has the strictest rules - frozen in time at 1962 (or 1963 ?), nothing later permitted in that class. ??
Maybe someone familar could elaborate - they get very big international attendances at Pukekohe, judging by reports, including lotsa famous past racing machines generally only seen in museums, out for a gallop....
If you want to go strictly historic racing, seem to recall that NZ has the strictest rules - frozen in time at 1962 (or 1963 ?), nothing later permitted in that class. ??
Maybe someone familar could elaborate - they get very big international attendances at Pukekohe, judging by reports, including lotsa famous past racing machines generally only seen in museums, out for a gallop....
Re: 100+ horsepower Norton 750???
Bear in mind when reading through this thread that AMC acquired Norton circa late 1952/early 1953, and injected a much needed dose of funds to permit such 'modern' things as die-cast alloy heads, 8" brakes and the funds to continue to do welded featherbed framed road bikes and even non-featherbed swingarm framed bikes. Without this, Nortons were in dire financial straits, and trailing badly behind in 'modernising' their designs, offering mostly a range of near obsolete design bikes. So read the comments about AMC's acquisition in this light...
beng said:
Bear in mind when reading through this thread that AMC acquired Norton circa late 1952/early 1953, and injected a much needed dose of funds to permit such 'modern' things as die-cast alloy heads, 8" brakes and the funds to continue to do welded featherbed framed road bikes and even non-featherbed swingarm framed bikes. Without this, Nortons were in dire financial straits, and trailing badly behind in 'modernising' their designs, offering mostly a range of near obsolete design bikes. So read the comments about AMC's acquisition in this light...
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