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TTI box shift pattern swap

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by Fast Eddie, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    I know Eddie will laugh when I say this, but my Seeley tightens it's line coming out of corners instead of running wide, so I can ride it very fast. But unlike a Manx, it cannot be trusted. With some of these shit-heaps - when you play with the handling, you can be riding the bike and feeling magnificent and in the next second be picking yourself up off the road and be wondering how you got there.
     
  2. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    A Manx 500 may have had 50bhp in the early 60s, but they really have moved on a lot from there.
     
  3. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Top ones are just touching 60rwhp aren’t they Steve?

    Folk have reported seeing less than 40rhwp from a stock 850 Commando, and not many are making 60.

    I think mine is quick, it is quite heavily modified and it’s only 4rwhp more than the top Manxes!

    And I’m guessing a good Manx is somewhat lighter than a Commando.
     
    SteveA likes this.
  4. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Eddie

    MK2 Seeley approx 300lbs 64bhp
    Molnar/Petty manx 300lbs 60bhp

    Chris
     
  5. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Them’ll take some catchin’ !
     
  6. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    A Molnar Manx probably has 18 inch wheels and 26 degree rake on the steering head, and handles like a modern bike. An original Manx had 19 inch wheels and 24.5 degree frame rake and is probably more nimble. So a lot probably depends on the nature of the circuit - whether it is rider's circuit or a power circuit. A Commando probably suits one or the other - it would not be universally good or average.
    I noticed that the Manx that Ken McIntosh had Cameron Donald riding at Phillip Island a few years back, still had 19 inch wheels but was using the Molnar or Summerfield motor. The thing is that in the 70s, we could not buy good 19 inch tyres. So a lot of aftermarket featherbed frames were made to take 18 inch wheels - 26 degree rake. The Domiracer that Tom Phillis rode on the IOM had 18 inch wheels and I doubt the rake would have been altered to suit. It would have been very stable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  7. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    Do you ever get the situation in the UK or America where Manx Nortons are in the same races as Commando-based bikes ? A good A-grade rider on a Manx is very difficult to beat.
     
  8. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    Yes, and G50s, mainly Seeley. Mixed 500/750 races at Gedinne in Belgium being my last. Race classes often run together in Europe generally.

    Racing with 500 singles is preferable to racing with '86 GSXRs and FZ750s and 1300 multis up to '83 which we have done in the UK! In France the same race I ran in last year includes TZ350s and other bikes from 350 to 1000, this year there will be more multis since the dates have changed to allow up to '83. The bulk of my 750 class will be Ducatis.

    Your rider 'grading' system isn't clear to me!
     
  9. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    We don't seem to have an active grading committee in Australia, these days. What it used to be were three grades A, B, and C and NSW even had D. You started usually in C grade, then got up-graded if you won races. Winning in any grade was difficult, because at the same time the races had capacity classes. A grade riders were usually compulsive-obsessive. Most good guys ended up in B Grade. In A grade the riders were all super-smooth and usually had genuine race bikes. My friend got into A-grade by winning the Junior B Grade at Bathurst.
    These days we take a different approach. In Historic racing we race everything against everything depending on it's date of manufacture. Sometimes there are capacity classes.
    If you get to race your Seeley against air-cooled Ducatis, you are extremely lucky. It would make racing worthwhile. In Australia, my Seeley is in Period 4 (1963 70 1973). There are only 3 air-cooled Ducatis racing and they are in Period 5 (1973 to 1982) and don't often do much good. If I race, my main opposition ride 1100cc methanol-fuelled CB750s. Beating them doesn't actually mean anything, because they are very different from a bike with a big twin cylinder four-stroke engine. Racing against big four-cylinder bikes and two-strokes does my head in - it is pretty pointless.
    There is only one good thing about historic racing. These days you usually get at least 3 rides at a meeting. In the old days, you would wait around for hours to get two rides - but the racing was more genuine.
    When we had graded races and capacity classes, the grids were smaller. These days, bigger is better and two-strokes are faster. The guys who are dedicated usually make a business out of making and selling race bikes which are vastly over-size in the motor department.
    One thing I know about my Seeley 850 - from experience - it is fast enough to win races in Period 4. - So what , when the racing does not mean anything ?
     
  10. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    I have a friend who runs a business fixing bikes near Winton Raceway. He has a bevel 860 Ducati with the steering modified so it handles well on our tight circuit. I have been trying to induce him to join me in a practice session - so far he has been reticent, even though he raced back in the 70s. The other day he got chucked off his road bike, so he is now hobbling around on crutches. I think he worries too much. Nobody needs to do silly-stuff in a practice session. With the guys these days, it is all about ego. I lost mine the first time I crashed in front of a big crowd. Air-cooled Ducatis are the same type of rubbish as Seeley Commandos. It would be a sheer joy to race against them. I'd like to have a go with a 900cc Monster. That would be interesting.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  11. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Wow.

    So, quick recap, I ordered a TTI box, with kickstart, for a road going Commando.

    I specifically asked for a standard Commando shift pattern, which, with the lever facing forwards, gives a ‘down for up’ change.

    As Kenny pointed out, it’s better to call this a ‘clockwise’ pattern (cw).

    But I received the wrong selector, the shift was upside down to what I wanted, ie counterclockwise.

    Martin at Minnovation eventually got me a new selector drum from TTI, it is marked CW in marker pen on the drum.

    Today I fitted it. It’s a counterclockwise drum, same as the old one.

    I am flabbergasted...

    Utterly flabbergasted.
     
  12. Onder

    Onder

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Down for up is standard Norton. So you wanted to use the shifter reversed but retain the Norton pattern, right?
     
  13. SeeleyWeslake

    SeeleyWeslake

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011

    FE

    I feel your pain

    I have just received a new 5 speed AMC EHD direct from TTI in NZ and the shift pattern was opposite to what I specified. Having read the foregoing comments in this thread I had specified what I thought was pretty unambiguous. Ie, I wanted the equivalent of the standard street pattern , “clockwise for a higher gear” Something got lost in translation between my order and the write up on the shops work order cos I got the opposite. I believe the descriptive convention they use inside TTI is “cw for 1st” or “counterclockwise for 1st” whereas I had specified “cw for a higher gear” and they didn’t catch that

    I did get another drum sent out very quickly but did wind up paying for it.

    As others have said, it is very easy to change out. And I got see what it looks like inside.

    Shane at TTI didn’t mention it to me but I did notice that the screw that holds the detent spring and ball in wasn’t loctited or secured in any other way so I did put some 242 loctite on it. I also removed the outermost dummy quadrant screw and washer and replaced it with a pair of loctited grub screws to better clear the engine plate. Hopefully you received the torque settings for the various fasteners when you received your box

    I did wonder about the frequency of oil changes, 1st after 5 laps , then 10 laps then every 2 race meetings – do they IOM laps I wonder?



    This whole exercise reminded me of some comments from old time flight control engineers who worked on things like the VC 10 and BAC 111. These aircraft used ac computing, full of synchros and mag amps, very phase dependent, so it didn’t matter how much you studied the drawings or analyzed it, you still only had a 50/50 chance of getting the control direction right. You always had to get in the cockpit, pull on the yoke, stick your head out the window and see which way the surfaces went. (similar thing also happened when working on the prototype of the B777 fbw system.)
     
  14. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    When I fitted the replacement change drum. I used silastic to seal the box and it leaked. So the bike is still sitting and I cannot get motivated to pull the box apart and seal it properly with Three Bond. It is a simple task, but as you get older the most difficult thing is to keep the urge going. That bloody wrong change drum is a pain in the arse, and Bruce knows that. In every other way, the attention to detail with the TTI box, is excellent.
     
  15. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    My wife found second-hand book about modern performance motorcycles up to about 2003. The only bike which has a cassette type gearbox is the MV Agusta ?
     
  16. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    But to Bruce it isn't wrong....he expects you to mount a lever Manx Norton style!
     
  17. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Well he shouldn’t, not when you specify ‘standard Norton Commando shift pattern, down for up with the lever facing forwards, or clockwise for up’
     
  18. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    Agreed, but he does. I think you have seen how I solved it for my Rickman. I have had my own communication issues direct with TTi, I have two pieces of scrap in my possession. This was at no cost to me as they resolved them, just frustrating. What really surprises me is that as paid intermediary Minnovation are not clear about what is needed. I can only think that most TTi road boxes have ended up in cafe racers with rearsets!

    I have to say that CW and CCW does not clarify much to me. You need to explain how it will be used yes, but having established that to Bruce 'normal' is 'reversed' Bruce needs to hear you want a 'reversed' drum compared to his 'normal' fit!

    Yes, PITA!
     
  19. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Yes Steve, I’ve seen your linkage and I do like it. Not much good for me though as I need space for one of those kick start things.

    With footrests, kickstarts, gear levers, and riders limbs to contend with it surprising how little space there is in this area!

    Well, I thought CW and CCW was clear. After all, so long as you’re talking about a right hand shift box, there is only one CW, and one CCW.

    But you’re right, it ain’t clear. I thought it was CW (or CCW) for UP, whereas in TTI (and Minnovation) parlance it is CW for FIRST !

    Anyway, I am currently in positive discussions with Rachael at TTI, who has been extremely helpful, and a new selector drum should be on its way to me shortly.

    The cock up has forced me to try the linkage set up though. This should give a nicer pedal action as it pivots with, rather than away from, my foot. So it just MAY have turned out to be blessing in disguise...
     
  20. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    The change of a TTi box is so slick I am sure it works fine as Bruce thinks most buyers use it, with a reversed pedal.

    Keep up the positive discussions.
     

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