TTi box false neutrals

SteveA · Jun 1, 2017

Just wondering if anyone has experience of false neutrals between 2nd and 3rd and 3rd and 4th on a TTi box.

There may be no issue as I havent been able to ride the bike so this is just static, but after a precautionary opening of the box before going racing I ran through all the gears up and down and it does engage all of them fine, but it is quite easy to slip into the false neutrals. I haven't ridden the bike since 2015 but I don't recall issues with this.

Of course it may not happen when riding, but I am just wondering if I have mispositioned something in the selector mech inside the inner cover?

Steve

Matchless · Jun 1, 2017

Hi Steve,
I have a TTi 'box & have not had this problem. I presume you are turning the rear wheel whilst trying to engage gears. Also, when you took the thing apart did you remove the selector drum, & if so did you refit the ball bearing?
Martyn.

Brooking 850 · Jun 1, 2017

I Steve, I have a TTI 5 speed in my race bike and find very rarely I also select the odd false neutral between 2 & 3 .
I just have to remember to tap down the shift so I dont end up in too lower gear and lock the back wheel.

It usually happens when I do too lighter a tap on the shift during racing, the box seems to need very positive pressure to shift, but not harsh.

I make a poit of changing the oil very often as well.
Regards Mike

SteveA · Jun 1, 2017

Matchless said:
Hi Steve,
I have a TTi 'box & have not had this problem. I presume you are turning the rear wheel whilst trying to engage gears. Also, when you took the thing apart did you remove the selector drum, & if so did you refit the ball bearing?
Martyn.

That is exactly what I was doing, now after running the bike to do the timing I think it may be better, only riding will tell....I think as Brooking says, more positive foot based input may be all that is needed. Whilst it was on the rollers and running I did go through the box up and down, seemed OK. I might have to ride may race bike up the quiet Normandy lane for the first time! probably a good idea before I load up and take it 750 km.

I only took the cluster out still attached to the inner cover, so no I should not have disturbed the indent ball. I have had a suggestion that the ball can get marked/dirty and the spring can weaken, as perhaps the selector return spring can.

I also need to investigate why the clutch is not clearing as easily as it might, so that outer cover may be coming off again anyway. It is back on the bench ready.

Brooking 850 · Jun 1, 2017

Hi Steve A , the clutch clearing problem maybe an issue that showed up in several bikes with the diaphragm clutch.
Inside the the TTI box there is a Triumph part no: 57-1710 which is a common gearbox part on a lot of Triumphs.
It separates the ball mechanism which your clutch rod mates with and the problem was bought to light by an Australian guy that I met when he raced his Norton in NZ late last year.
This problem has shown up on mine and I am about to sort it this winter.(here in the Southern Hemisphere)
Apparently the actuating pin gets enough wear on the face plate end and doesnt give enough travel to separate the ball mechanism.
I get clutch creep , which is abit daunting during race starts.
No matter how much you adjust the bolt at the diaphragm end and /or on the adjuster at the handle bar lever (eventually get slippage) the pin still doesnt give enough separation.
Like I say MAY be the problem, food for thought.
Regards Mike

SteveA · Jun 1, 2017

Brooking 850 said:
Hi Steve A , the clutch clearing problem maybe an issue that showed up in several bikes with the diaphragm clutch.
Inside the the TTI box there is a Triumph part no: 57-1710 which is a common gearbox part on a lot of Triumphs.
It separates the ball mechanism which your clutch rod mates with and the problem was bought to light by an Australian guy that I met when he raced his Norton in NZ late last year.
This problem has shown up on mine and I am about to sort it this winter.(here in the Southern Hemisphere)
Apparently the actuating pin gets enough wear on the face plate end and doesnt give enough travel to separate the ball mechanism.
I get clutch creep , which is abit daunting during race starts.
No matter how much you adjust the bolt at the diaphragm end and /or on the adjuster at the handle bar lever (eventually get slippage) the pin still doesnt give enough separation.
Like I say MAY be the problem, food for thought.
Regards Mike

I have a diaphram clutch made by Norman White, smaller and with AJS Stormer plates, but much the same as most.

Inside the box the pushrod runs on a plate, I don't recall the 57-1710 part, but I can see pictures of where it is, and I think there are 3 balls in there, but which actual pieces need to be changed?

I am going to pull it and take a look anyway.

SteveA · Jun 2, 2017

For the clutch, having investigated I think it is just as easy to change the whole assembly, which removes wear in the cups and balls as well. Triumph part #57-7033, so I have ordered one, and I have someon else taking one to Cadwell forme just in case it does not arrive before leave home. Spare one in the tool box is probably a good idea.

There as definitely vear, which does indeed interfere with setting the clerance you want, imagine that the wear mark is slightly smaller tan the pushrod diameter, and you set clearance agains the edges only, butthe operational force cause the rod to drop into the hole! As a shot term fix I have dressed he wear out on a surface plate. I now have clerance and everything seems better.

Going back to the original problem posted, the gear selection. I had also approached TTi, who sent me set up notes I have never seen before, which tells you to have some clerance between the hairpin pedal return spring and the actuator pins the actuator pins rest on, there wasn't any, a quick tweek got some and that seems better too.

The proof of the pudding however.... :wink:

acotrel · Jun 2, 2017

I have a 6 speed TTI box behind my 850 motor. I haven't been able to yet afford a practice day to test it. However one of our local self-made experts told me that with the TTI box, slow positive gear changes are necessary to stop it going through the next gear and into a neutral. When I bought the box, it came with the wrong selector drum - gave the Triumph shift pattern. So I had the correct drum sent to me and returned the original. I pulled the box apart and swapped the selector drum. In doing it, I undid the plug which holds the spring against the detent ball of the selector drum. It was held in with very strong Loctite. If that comes loose, your gearbox might go berserk.

SteveA · Jun 3, 2017

acotrel said:
I have a 6 speed TTI box behind my 850 motor. I haven't been able to yet afford a practice day to test it. However one of our local self-made experts told me that with the TTI box, slow positive gear changes are necessary to stop it going through the next gear and into a neutral. When I bought the box, it came with the wrong selector drum - gave the Triumph shift pattern. So I had the correct drum sent to me and returned the original. I pulled the box apart and swapped the selector drum. In doing it, I undid the plug which holds the spring against the detent ball of the selector drum. It was held in with very strong Loctite. If that comes loose, your gearbox might go berserk.

There are 8 threaded parts inside the outer cover, all with some loctite on. I figure if any one of them comes loose it may be a problem! with varying degrees of mayhem.

I had that plug out to check the spring and loctited it back. The plug you mention is a biggish part that isn't that likely to go through the inner cover, but you would completely loose your shift indent, so hopefully you would have the presence of mind to stop soon! But adrenalin is an unreliable drug!

acotrel · Jun 3, 2017

When I pulled the selector drum out, I did not realise that I cold simply hold the detent ball back against the spring with my finger to get it back in. So I undid the cap. I didn't re-Loctite it, however it is still very tight I'm sure Bruce Verdon used that strong white Loctite for a reason, but I couldn't figure out a way to remove all traces of it before putting the new stuff on the threads. I don't think that cap will come out during racing - the Loctite was probably a belt and braces approach towards ensuring safety in case somebody fitted the cap loose.

acotrel · Jun 3, 2017

About adrenalin. I've had 3 strokes and a double heart bypass operation. Adrenalin is part of the fight and flight syndrome. It affects the liver causing it to create cholesterol. After I retired and got divorced, I was full of it. These days I take Metoprolol which is a beta-blocker. It stops the adrenalin rush. I can recommend it - if you have a moment while racing, you don't get the burst of adrenalin, so you simply deal with the situation in the cold light of day. I told my doctor about it, he said it probably should not be used in that way. However the target-shooters use it to steady their hands.

Brooking 850 · Jun 6, 2017

Hi Steve thanks for your frrdback, can you send me a copy of those diagrams?
Any pics of the wear in your 3 x ball mechanism?
Regards Mike

SteveA · Jun 6, 2017

Brooking 850 said:
Hi Steve thanks for your frrdback, can you send me a copy of those diagrams?
Any pics of the wear in your 3 x ball mechanism?
Regards Mike

PM me an address and I will forward the whole mail. There are 4 useful attachments. Alternatively ask Steve Clark at TTi, you are local!

I didn't take pictures, but there was wear on the end of the pin and around the shaft of the pin there are two grooves, one from each plate. There is also light wear in the ball tracks on both plates and wear is apparent on the balls, but difficult to measure. If clutch lift is marginal I am wondering if changing the 3/8 balls (9.5mm) to say 10mm might produce a fraction more lift. It would depend how well they sit in the indents I guess.

It was also suggested by someone else that I check that the handlebar lever is providing enough lift. Wear on the pivot, or a slightly short fulcrum pivot to cable perch/nipple distance would impact it.

Brooking 850 · Jun 6, 2017

Thanks Steve.

SteveA · Jun 24, 2017

When ridden there are no false neutrals, just a lovely light gearchange!

Clutch release was still a problem.....

Tried the Triumph part, very little change, tried a different handlebar lever, right direction, not enough....then another lever...I think that will do!

Check you have at least 3cm from lever pivot to nipple centres to get enough pull and that with the adjuster full in you get enough free play to ensure the actuator can return to rest full when released. Set up the clutch push rod with appropriate clearance using diaphragm centre adjuster before fitting cable in lever, should need only minor adjustment then at lever.

Triumph part is a complete red herring, I have spares if you ever need them!

Steve

Brooking 850 · Jun 24, 2017

Hi Steve, at the handle bar end or in the g/box?
Regards Mike

SteveA · Jun 25, 2017

Brooking 850 said:
Hi Steve, at the handle bar end or in the g/box?
Regards Mike

Handlebar. I edited the post.

Of course with the TTi box using the Triumph assembly, you cannot change the lever part, unless you welded an extension on, which would probably foul and misalign the cable entry!

And you shouldn't need to. All of this may differ depending on the actual belt drive you have, my Norman White belt drive uses an AJS Stormer diaphragm, which is a bit smaller. But it is what Thruxton used back in '73/'74!

Needless to say none of these applications use standard Commando bar levers/perches, so I have asked a separate question regarding whatever that pivot distance that might be.

pantah_good · Jun 25, 2017

FWIW - when I saw your clutch lever fulcrum radius question post, I dug out the new clutch lever assembly I got to use on my rebuild to see what it measured. From my old big twin bevel Ducati days, I learned the importance of that dimension and how hard it is to find out when shopping for levers. My new Doherty type 219 clutch lever from Feked.com measures a good full 1 1/8" for fulcrum radius. Hope somehow that info helps.
Bill
https://www.feked.com/genuine-doherty-clutch-lever-7-8-bars-219-type-ball-end.html

SteveA · Jun 25, 2017

pantah_good said:
FWIW - when I saw your clutch lever fulcrum radius question post, I dug out the new clutch lever assembly I got to use on my rebuild to see what it measured. From my old big twin bevel Ducati days, I learned the importance of that dimension and how hard it is to find out when shopping for levers. My new Doherty type 219 clutch lever from Feked.com measures a good full 1 1/8" for fulcrum radius. Hope somehow that info helps.
Bill
https://www.feked.com/genuine-doherty-clutch-lever-7-8-bars-219-type-ball-end.html

I think it does. I have been learning down the same path you have, I have an AJS which needs 7/8" pivots and no adjuster for brake and clutch. The PO had fitted alloy levers with 1 1/16" pivots, no brakes, heavy clutch!

This an important dimension that should be marked for every lever for sale, but just isn't!

pantah_good · Jun 26, 2017

Following up on my first post, I got my Ducati friend to measure an actual Bevel 900SS clutch lever assy. (p/n 079754733), and the pivot point to cable end center is a whopping 1.26". Probably the best source for that lever assembly would be Medina Italia in the UK, but it is out of stock and huge money (see first link). They sell another clutch lever assembly, which I believe has the same dimensions and is in stock (see second link). Also huge money, and it would be wise to check with them for the actual pivot dimension on that one.
Bill
Broken links removed

TTi box false neutrals

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