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Trident ~ true phoenix

Discussion in 'Triumph (Classic)' started by Stuart SS, Sep 6, 2009.

  1. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Mate~ it’s all about tune ~ and the build … The classic Trident was slippery Sam~ no one quite understood WHY the bike was so fast ~ but it was ~ Sure it had mods but the original was a very fast bike

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... tjPnYtc4CQ

    I know a few Triplers that push their bikes out to 8K BUT ~ most have things like Carrillo con-rods ~ plus a mirid of other practical mods.

    The triples are renowned for exiting rods through the crankcases ~ especially at high revs.

    My tacho frequents the 5-6K mark ~

    If one wants a high rev screamer then just go buy a Japanese modern sports bike ~

    I am running T120 mufflers with Paul Bryant's "Big Bore" pipes ~ and the combo is almost lacking in back pressure ~

    I am slowly working on mine ~ and at the moment it is flying ~ but I have issues at bottom end revs ~ I do have two sets of carbs ~ the professionally built set and my own build.
    The pro jobs are the ones giving me grief !! Mine work fine ~ But I paid big bucks for the pro jobs so I want them to work!!

    I have also ordered a complete balanced blue printed and lightened clutch from Charlie Barnes in California at Triple Techs. It is not cheap but I am tired of screwing around with mix and match, back yard input and mis-cues ~

    TripleTecs Trident & Rocket 3 Racing Restorations
    http://www.tripletecs.com/

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I am also considering a belt drive ~

    I am also considering, just how much dollars is enough~ But I give thanks for the upgraded brakes I fitted ~ they work very-very well ~


    [​IMG]
     
  2. Onder

    Onder

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    First, the pix of the RHS of the oil cooler has what appears to be a Aeroquip
    hose fitting but upon examination , is it a dummy with a jubilee hidden inside it?
    Secondly, the lighten clutch attracts, the clutch can be a maintenance point on
    triples. Did Triplestech give you any advise on proper adjustment? Ive read where
    going against the "some free play" in the pull rod, ie, always having just a bit
    of preload will give longer bearing life as well as more travel and ease of shifing.
    Way back when I used to set mine up with some preload and it shifted wonderfully
    and cannot say it wore out any faster or slower than with free play.
    Opinions?
     
  3. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Onder

    Yes they are dress up parts and look a whole lot better than the standard hose clamp jobbie ~

    [​IMG]

    I set the clutch adjustment with a 002 thou feeler gauge ~ the manual says I think , 004-005thou which is too much ~ As part of a large group of Australian Triplers there is much debate about adjustment !

    The latest I have heard out of UK and a former factory spanner that if one takes the spacing washer from the rocker box/ shafts, it is the correct size to fit under the clutch abutment nut~

    This allows easy finger touch adjustment ~ I tried it.. not keen on that method ~

    But of course the finer the adjustment the better result. As some one else said to me only yesterday , " Give me a Commando clutch any day !! "

    But to have permanent pressure on the bearing/s via the pull rod will surely end in tears ~ (??) And I am told that is how pull rods get broken !

    As for Charlie Barnes ~ he waded into my clutch issues via web posting I put up~ and seems a straight shooter. And according to other USA contacts I have made, he is a very talented and agreeable type, so I have no doubt he is back up his goods ~
     
  4. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    So what about the old Mini Cooper AP/Lockheed clutch & Trident compatibility story - bullshit or not?
     
  5. Onder

    Onder

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Be useful to hash out the clutch adj story. This winter is time for strip down
    and I intend to go to Triple for the work on the clutch.
    Also have read with interest the idea of sinking the deep part of the release ramps
    ten thou more and then blending this in to the existing ramp for greater lift.
    More lift seems a big part of the answer.
     
  6. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Onder

    Hold your breath as I am writing a full blown synopsis as we speak and will cover as many issues herein I can pull out of my (home brew) beer and Dewars marinated grey space !! :shock: 8) :D

    And I will endeaour to assist you as I can, sahre any further imfo I can offer ~

    While you wait ~ so if you can answer this for me ~ ( Acutally I will post this as a new post on the Other classic string! Maybe even the Commando as it is a carb issue! )
     
  7. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    JAW

    I have considered the Mini V Trident Rocket clutch and the only real reseemblence to the other is the plate ~

    http://www.minimania.com/part/GCP204/Di ... ini-Cooper

    But having said that I have read that the inspiration for the Triple clutch was inspired by the Mini unit~

    The issue I have is that if you hung the same thing off a Cooper S engine it would disnintergrate (?)

    And again the Mini unit had the similar idiosyncries as each other. Having owned both the bikes and the car, they either were flawless or simply gave irritating frustrating problems.

    My previous T160 was flawless and I never had an issue ~

    This bike was also faultless until a very small amount of oil seeped in via a flawed inner case seal mount seat ~

    The concept on the face of it was/ is simple enough. But straight up and traditionally recognised that the clutch can be source of vibration and obviously sadly lacks in the weight department.

    Any of us that have handled one of these puppies has to stunned ! ~ by the sheer weight.

    One of my fellow triples here, is sold on 'Triples Rule' and their Alloy clutch components ~ but they are very expensive !

    We shaved a shyte load off the pressure plate and the basket.

    But while most lighten the shaft cover as can be seen above with Charlie’s unit, the weight is minimal and again any substantial weight reduction MAY cause flexing in operation. So best left to the true pros there!

    BUT the machining we did is/ was based on a number of professional variances & photos. But again this is a very contentious issue in it self as too much weight loss in the wrong places and you will create a nightmare . Allowing flex and stress under heat !

    First be very wary of removing too much or nay beef off the face of the basket ~ too much and there is an issue of significant pressure and clutch slip!

    iF THIS HAPPENS then it is down to 'shortening' the basket pegs. This is a very delicate and precise operation and the pegs can be very easily destroyed, or broken!!

    Charlie Barnes’ theory is the clutch plate ideal thickness is .292 but NO more than .32 ! Any wider.. The whole operation is bound to go down the tube!

    Another issue is that one can have an ideal clutch operation and perfect feel and disengage at idle , but when the casings heat up ~ (all Alloy) the expansion causes the clutch is deteriorate . And as with mine neutral is very difficult to access, due to shifting setting and the alloy casings, I think !

    The pull rod~ two choices ~ self centring or ‘top hat’ ~ I tried the self centring and had an issue with mysterious galling and foreign material !? Causing another problem and subsequently ~ another over haul ~

    Now I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed ~ but I ask – “HOW hard can this be!?”
    Apparently many a rider has been undone by what appears to be essentially a straight forward issue ~

    But here we have a very heavy unit ~ 14 LBS I believe ~ and it is swinging around on two needle bearings. The clutch plate being supported on a splined dog at the rear ~ So balance would seem rather important ~ well to me.

    If you flick back to page 4 you will see what happened when I fitted one of the new type plates . Now I ran this issue past the vendor of course he denied any issues previously!
    But how can a clutch plate go convex ~ concave when the pressure plate and basket are perfectly parallel?

    I sanded the thing parallel and the dimension still fell well within parameters ~ and refitted. The result was of course vastly improved ~

    (The Sintered types as typical from Norman Hyde are in fact slightly concave! This apparently to gradually absorb the torque of the take up as the clutch is released. I was deterred from using the Hyde unit as they are very hard and will in fact wear the faces of the components !!)

    Another Tripler I know in Brisbane , the builder of my Super carbs is struggling with one of his triples ~ His clutch is driving him insane.

    He has designed his own version of the lift ramp and is making them ~ his will give that extra lift factor we agree would work even more effectively ~ We are yet to hear back from him~

    He has written reams of technical letters and shared them with our Tripler’s group ~

    Another of our group put the pull rod clean through the inspection cover when his broke ~ We agree it was too tight on the adjustment ~

    Additionally it is important to make sure that when you have reassembled the clutch that the entire assembly to pulled fully home to the left before adjusting.

    I found this out the hard way when I first had the Barnett plate seize up on me ~ When I pulled it tight the new needle bearing was seemingly not totally seated straight and prevented the housing and shaft pulling totally home! (One should hear a loud “Gawk” sound typically as the assembly pulls home to the left.)

    A real rookie mistake and in fact when you adjust the lift ramp ~ and first go for a run the thing can drift back inwards and the chain wheel WILL contact the inner case ~ THIS IS NOT GOOD !

    It was obvious that had actually happened when I initially stripped the engine for rebuild ~ When I inquired to my preferred spanner for reassembly, his comment was that the casing was okay ~ not perfect but okay ~ ( In hindsight if the casing had been replaced that tiny amount of oil would have not accessed the clutch and seized and this conversation would more than likely NOT be happening ~ and Yes I have discussed this with “Garry” !)

    To be continued.. Maybe ~
     
  8. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Another throw in ~

    To gain that little extra lever grab I tried putting a small spacer ( similar to Triumph handle bar spacer/s) under the lever perch, on the out ward side. This does work and several of our group have successfully adapted this ~

    But ~ even though a 1/8" does not seem a lot it actually noticeably increases the finger grab distance from hand grip to the lever ~ Of course it all depends on what style of lever you are using.

    I have a Kawasaki ' collapsible' type lever ~


    [​IMG]

    PS; I actually went back to the Hinckley Sprint style of hand grip~ this style did not work for me ~ 8)
     
  9. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Ah, S.S.S., the tribulations of the Trident tune, I 'heard' that the A/P Lockheed carbon clutch plate was designed to function even under oily MOWOG employment & would do like-wise for the 3s.
     
  10. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Update regarding my recent carby nightmares ~

    Problem positively resolved .. although I have yet to identify what the ^&%^&^ is wrong with the offending Super carbs ~ at least I have a amicable well behaved but well performing Trident ~

    Saturday afternoon ~ 1300 hrs.
    Just returned from my latest road test.

    I put in about 50-60kilometres (My bike has a metric GPS Speedo!)

    I fitted my own rebuild carbs, while not the excellence of Bob's skill, are certainly nothing to be ashamed of either IMO ~ and are totally stock Amal 626 by the workshop manual to suit the 750 Triple.

    This included extensive hill country and lots of twists turns. Additionally it included highway cycle , mostly tarred road , town and even around 5 kilometres of dirt~ including again lots of hills ~

    Fine Sunny day, around guesstimate 70% humidity~ no dry lips but dry!

    First ~ Fires first kick ~ idle is great, even cold! No fluttering or spluttering at ANY levels~

    I fitted my pod filters ~

    The performance is excellent~ accelerates superbly~

    Now when first started and run there was no popping from the exhaust~

    But as I went on there was a little but not so bad.. I am thinking Bob could be right and I still have some small exhaust leaks causing the popping. Will look into it ! But I can put up with that level~ No where near as much as my Commando and I know that it has leaks ..

    (I Challenge anyone to show me a balanced pipe Commando that is sealed 100%)

    But overall the bike is pleasure to ride and I did not have to wrestle with it at all ~ I deliberately endeavoured to ride in a comfort rather than race mode.

    The bike is smooth and pleasant at ALL levels ~

    I stretched it out after about 5 klicks and pushed with ease to 145 kmh ~

    No problems ~

    NOW for the BIGGY!!

    I rode out the highway and about another 5 klicks out there is a sweeping down hill turn on the highway ~ and about at the bottom there is a right hand turn off and the road immediately goes into a steep uphill climb ~

    I turned into this and brought the bike to a slow rolling first engagement that I would do at home ~ then endeavoured to climb this hill which s a lot steeper than our driveway~

    It pulled up the hill with NO effort or complaint in the least!

    So I continued along this road which went to gravel and I figured would be another test of engine tractability/ flexibility ~

    So completed another 5 K in 2-3 gear without struggle or wrestling ~

    Finally I returned to base and again.. the DRIVEWAY !

    I brought to a rolling first gear and then up it went .. NO PROBLEMS AT ALL ~

    So NOW?

    Put the Super carbs back to the centre slot ~ and check th e headers and mufflers for leaks ~

    I plan on gleaning some riding pleasure from this beast first!
    Then I will refit and play around with them after all i paid big dollars

    (Although I bet you could buy new Amals of such a high standard and guaranteed to never wear out fo rthe same money ! )
     
  11. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Okay

    I am going on annual leave end of next week ~

    Got quite a work shop list to cover ~

    1- Replace the clutch assembly as the Charlie Barnes unit turned up last week ~ and really looks the business ~

    (the extensions are mount rods fitted prior to balancing)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    2- Rework the Super carbs

    3 - I have ordered baffle extensions and will 'tune' them in conjunction with the carbs ~ as several of us believe the bottom end issues I have been having with the Super carbs are directly related to the fact that I have an overly free flowing exhaust system with the Viking big bores pipes and the T120 Mufflers

    4- Replace the oil gauge mount pod with a SAAS unit .

    5- I have also ordered a set of progressive wind fork springs for the front end. I expect all these items will be be here in the first week of my break .
     
  12. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Just for historical value, here is an excerpt from ''Motor Cycle" [9 July `69] re Trident fuel consumption [@ I.o.M. production race].
    ''For example, Martin Carney's Triumph Trident was doing 25mpg, while the factory prepared Bonnevilles were only a little less thirsty at 27mpg."
     
  13. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Well Blokes I think I just made a practical proof in case regarding Back pressure exhausts V straight through as I have been wrestling for almost two years with issues regarding bottom end performance with the Trident ~

    A suggestion was made by a fellow tripler regarding back pressure on the exhaust ~ SO i tried it ~

    And I am U telling it has made HUGE difference ~

    The text associated with video says it all~ In fact all about the debate over baffling V straight trhough exhausts ~

    Triumph Trident T150V (1974) Special/ Cafe baffling saga

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpDC9c3ANYQ&list=UU0WmvnZhgaYz0qNQCs-bbWA&index=1&feature=plcp[/video]


    ~
     
  14. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Baffling indeed, -S.S.S. , I m still a bit fuzzy on the whole exhaustive deal..
    You weren`t running straight pipes [ 1 pipe per cyl, constant diameter nil internal baffles or shape/volume changes -T 120 "TT" type]?`
    You weren`t running a 3-1 collector system with an unbaffled megaphone [per F 750 racers].
    You have some modified Triumph road muffler/s on an aftermarket header set-up?
    How have you established flow restriction values?
    Have you put it on a dyno?-Comparative checks ? -Run manometer bench tests?
    Refitted a bone stock system? Had an exhaust sensor fuel/air analysis? Or is it simply "seat of the pants'' muddling?
     
  15. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Ahhh ~ As "Dave " would say ~ Yuupp!!

    I guess that would explain why I have been tweaking for two years ~

    First no sophisticated tools ~ and then a long haul from a Dyno !!

    But have made extensive comaprisons with more knowledgeable triplers than myself ~ and obviously done a lot of experimenting ~

    Bottom line ~ This mod works ~ and works well ~ The further obvious result will be regain any (maybe) loss (?) of mid to top end range sharpness on the tune and that (sorry) obviously~ again ~ would be regained by modifying the baffles ~ or in a 'kiss' method ~ flatten them out slightly ~

    Could be too that ~ just maybe we complicate things ~ or is that just that some times we don't have access to ~ those sophisticated tools !???

    Guess it is all down to a " Bert Munro system" ~ :shock: 8) :lol:

    But Hey ~ isn't that what 80% of Classic motorcyle ownership is ALL about !
     
  16. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    S.S.S., a D.I.Y. manometer/flow gauge can be built at home quite easily/cheaply using your household vacuum cleaner & some clear tubing/duct tape -its a bit of fun, just tell the missus you`ll replace it if you root it.
     
  17. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Maatte ~

    NOW You've got me interested.. always big on building odd bods ~ I will goggle and do some home work !! Cheers !
     
  18. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Well the Holidays are over and it is back the Grind ~

    ( Did not even get any fishing in ! %^$%$&^$ . Either too windy ~ raining or just too hot ~ and when it is Hot in the Tropics ..it is scorching ~ )

    Anyway ~ I spent almost a full week playing with the Super carbies ~ and switched needles to every combination with NO resolve~

    My original plan was to perfect my own build carbs and the have another bash at getting the Super carbs right!

    ( This really took some explaining to Ms M as all she saw was the video she did the previous week and then it was running like crap !!)

    I found or recalled that when I first ordered huge batches of parts in the early days ~ that I had opted to order the T160 five ring needles as a option for my primary build carbies ~ and even more intriguingly with 3 ½ slides rather the 4 slides which is recommended with the T160 economy kit!

    The Super carbs are fitted with the standard 2 rings ~ I even tried fitting the anodised slides ~ ( both sets are 3 1/2 slides) but I simply could not get the stutter at throttle break and thus the falter from low/ bottom end response !

    I also removed the baffles ad flattened out three rows of six as the mid range response and above was dulled !

    So I refitted my carbs with T160 needles and stock 3 1/2 slides and 150 & 106 jets and the bike FLIES ~~ It is "on Fire" ~

    Even the club events co-ordinator waltzed up to me as two of us were warming up to head home Sunday morning, exclaiming the Trident sounded superb! I had even polished the bike up for the annual Toy run on Saturday morning ~ so is looking fantastic ~

    So that put the Cream on the pie as it were ~ LOL

    I was also talking with the senior British bike expert on the club scene and he exclaimed IHO without hesitation that I need No 4 slides to make the Super carbs work ~ But it best be right as new anodised slides are going to cop me $150

    So i plan to get some fun out of the bike before attempting to tweak the Super carbs ~ and even fitting the Charlie Barnes Clutch as the current clutch is working just fine now ~ DESPITE the fact I flogged the absolute crap out it over the past few weeks ~

    Although I feel the balance factor may be less than perfect ~

    And further more the Commando is also flying !! Both firing on the first kick as well ~

    The Commando presented a challenge when I fitted SS Bling plates over the rocker end/ covers on the head.

    I had to have up to four go’s at sealing the covers leaking oil fro the rocker shafts ~ and it was until I used Selastic 732 and allowed to sure before nipping up the mount studs, before I finally go them all to seal ~
     
  19. J.A.W.

    J.A.W.

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
  20. Stuart SS

    Stuart SS

    Joined:
    May 22, 2004
    Thanks J.A.W. ~ I will Keep it in mind ~ 8)

    Oh BTW neglected to mention that after I reduced the amount of back pressure from the Baffles ~ the mid range and up was instantly restored ~ with great top gear and mid range throttle response at speed ~

    And the bottom end has also remained more stable than previously since completion of the build ! Another great add on out come ~
     

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