Temperature gauges.

Anybody tried Trail Tech style temperature gauges on their Commando or Commando engined bike?

The type that uses a sensor under the spark plug.

I have had one installed for 10 years, comes in handy to monitor temp on the head, especially in hot weather. A simple unit, I have been happy with.

champ7fc said:

I have had one installed for 10 years, comes in handy to monitor temp on the head, especially in hot weather. A simple unit, I have been happy with.

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Just on one side?, or a dual read out?

We used them on free-air cooled snowmobile engines in the old days

Perhaps it depends on where you live. But it sounds like a recipe for anxiety. The numbers are going to be all over the map, and there is bugger all you can do about it anyway.

My Commando had one that went under the spark plug and one that was in the exhaust header.. First thing i did was take it all off and give it away.

Hi all,
Do Nortons have issues running hot in certain conditions?
In my job I’m rather obsessed with cylinder head temperatures as the Grumman aircraft i operate in particular have very tightly cowled air cooled engines that definitely run towards the upper CHT limit. We have digital readout on all cylinders. Lycoming give max CHT at 500’F which is really cooking and normal operations below 450’. Personally try to keep them below 400’ although in climb this is not always possible.
Assuming baffles are in good condition, mixture is the most important factor in keeping temperatures in the acceptable range (and timing of course, where even a few degrees advance can push up values). I often have to run considerably richer than desirable to keep heads cool enough in climb and cruise.
Hot heads leads to burnt valves and valve guide wear which these engines are prone to with occasional cracked heads and even metallurgical changes.
Not sure how this relates to our Nortons but I certainly had similar issues with my Trident.
Regards
Alan

Surely on a Commando what counts is oil temperature... The interesting point beingjusthow long it takes for a Commando to come up to working temperature... I would hazard the opinion more enginedamge has resulted from cold runningand engined being prematurely revved. It takes 10to15 miles in Heavy London traffic to get a respectable bulk oil temp.

Blimey Alan 500degrees is hot... what oil is recommended to withstand that

oldmikew said:

Blimey Alan 500degrees is hot... what oil is recommended to withstand that

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Yes, to me it seems insanely hot, remember that is an absolute redline.
Most oil is either a straight 50 weight detergent oil (D100) specifically designed for aero engine. There is nothing that makes me believe it is at all high tech as most things in general aviation are very old fashioned as certification of new products takes so long. It has very high scavenging ability and turns black like old diesel oil very quickly. High lead contents of fuel (even the Low Lead varieties, 100LL) place great demands on oils and considerable lead deposits are common. For aircraft without filters (yes, there are still quite a few around, particularly Continentals) they recomm changing every 25 hrs and 50 hrs for those equipped with a spin on filter.
In general the smart money says that for maximum longevity temps should be between 320 and 400F
The position and type of sensor has a lot to do with recorded value so often they are best used as an indicator for movement away from normal parameters. Temp senders under spark plugs tend to read hotter than others.
As for oil temp most aircraft have oil coolers with a thermostat set to 190F.
Cylinder blowby has a lot to do with excessive oil temps.
Indeed excessively cold temps for both oil and cylinder heads also adversely affects life. I’ve never really noticed excessive temps on my bikes and with the T160 I generally grab the cooler inlet while riding and not burn myself.
We are also very interested in exhaust gas temperatures, often peaking above 1500’ but the actual value is not important, it is just used for determining peak EGT with mixture. The engines can be run Lean of Peak or Rich of Peak depending on the operation. At max power engines are left very rich to ensure adequate head and exhaust valve cooling.
The most amazing demonstration of a bike operating in hideous conditions is my Farm Yamaha TTR250. When dpoing cattle work pushing the slow animals up steep hills with the clutch constantly slipping I cringe at the temperatures the bike has to endure. This is often made worse by mud caked onto the front of the cooling fins. I dread to think what the values are and it will knock (not pink) if revs pull down too much (95 RON). Nevertheless, it keeps coming back for more.
hope this is of interest
Alan

A Norton's valve seat would fall out at 450 degrees, I know a Harley's would! (don't ask how I know it was expensive)

Let common sense prevail. Norton engines were designed by Brits for use in Northern European climes (cool). Then, Americans
thought it would be "cool" to use a Commando as a commute vehicle in stop=n-go city traffic, and in warm weather. For sure
the oil is being cooked!
I sold a Mercury I restored, with new 60 over bore and new pistons, (foolish of me in afterthought to sell it) to a gent in Texas who proceeded to
take a road trip through Arizona in mid-summer with 110 degree temperatures. Well, sure enough the engine seized requiring a
rebuild with sleeved barrels, new pistons and rings. The Norton twin engine is not designed to sustain in high temperatures as configured.
Yeah, I'm sure some of the more talented engineer/mechanic/riders know how to tweek things, but yer average old man rider is best
suited to weekend riding in moderate temperatures. I have figured out that my Commando performs best with outside temps in the
high 50's F and moderate to high humidity.. YMMV
And, yes, I have experienced a valve seat dropping out while idling for a long period of time.

To answer your question,I run one sender on the right cylinder. I have found that the engine is warmed up enough when the reading hits 140 degrees F. I live in New England and the running temp has rarely broken 280, I monitor the temp during a ride , it is mounted on the center post where the rubber bung was. The temp gauge is a tool for deciding if I have an impending engine problem, a rapidly rising temp above the normal range may give me a way to avoid a very expensive failure. As a pilot I also tend to look at cylinder head temps on air cooled engines, not so critical on the ground but could be a life saver in the air. Just my two cents worth.

Those who follow my posts will recognise I race my Norton.

I also have a 2 stroke, to which I have fitted trail tech gauges, so far they seem mainly to tell me what the temperature in the workshop is, but this is a common choice on racing 2 strokes. Also quite popular on enduro bikes which sometimes lack cooling airflow.

The alternative of an oil temperature gauge is well worth a thought, but might be more difficult to accomplish with oil in the frame.

My Norton can run 'hot', or at least it can burn my legs with hot oil in the frame and a high level exhaust that runs under the top frame rails and my thighs. The experience differs slightly depending on which fuel tank I am using since I have 3 off different length...which affects airflow under the seating area.

I am looking to resolve airflow as the primary issue. I have just fitted a new fairing, but it is the same design as the last one. I had drilled four large holes in the last fairing, but only got to test it at one event before wrecking it and I am reluctant to drill the new one. I am contemplating removing the mudguard to improve air flow and repositioning a few things, like the oil filter.

The problem may not be engine related, but I want to know if high engine temperature is exacerbating the issue, or even if reducing running temperature can be part of a solution.

I think a set of gauges might just show if the heat is mainly lack of air flow, or if there is a significant contribution from weak running and unsuitable ignition advance settings.

In France we sometimes have races in the south in summer, so far I avoided those for a variety of reasons! I never really had these issues racing the bike in the UK, but French events have 20 minute races and test sessions, the UK typically 10 minutes maximum!

I would not fit gauges to a road bike other than as champ7fc suggests, but I think I would still go for 2 to rapidly pick up any issues on start up armand warm through. (It might also give me a clue what is happening in the warm up area, where typically we are held too long with most race officials having more experience of water cooled bikes for which this is less of an issue)

(I also note champ7fc indicates choices are coloured by his other experiences in life.....pilot!)

Stephen Hill said:

Perhaps it depends on where you live. But it sounds like a recipe for anxiety. The numbers are going to be all over the map, and there is bugger all you can do about it anyway.

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That isn't true is it? You can always do something about running temperature, like severely advancing or retarding the ignition, fitting the wrong plugs or weakening the mixture!

Doubtless they were fitted by the PO as a fault finding tool! I don't think I would want them fitted to a road bike either.

lazyeye6 said:

....... yer average old man rider is best suited to weekend riding in moderate temperatures.....

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Well I pretty much stick to weekend riding!

But I do realise I am totally out of spec for what I am trying to do!

oldmikew said:

Surely on a Commando what counts is oil temperature... The interesting point beingjusthow long it takes for a Commando to come up to working temperature... I would hazard the opinion more enginedamge has resulted from cold runningand engined being prematurely revved. It takes 10to15 miles in Heavy London traffic to get a respectable bulk oil temp.

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Difficult to see how you would get a sensor into a Rickman frame, so you would be limited to measuring temperature where the oil is flowing through a hose. A small hose at that, so I don't think a suitable sensor could be found!

SteveA said:

Difficult to see how you would get a sensor into a Rickman frame, so you would be limited to measuring temperature where the oil is flowing through a hose. A small hose at that, so I don't think a suitable sensor could be found!

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I have a smiths instrument.and had the adaptor brazed on when thethe bike was new.. Would have thought you could do something similar with an oil in frame bike , but then there would be swarf from drilling .

oldmikew said:

I have a smiths instrument.and had the adaptor brazed on when thethe bike was new.. Would have thought you could do something similar with an oil in frame bike , but then there would be swarf from drilling .

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In truth I would like to add an additional pipe to the frame and may end up stripping it for that work at some time. Drilling holes isn't an attractive idea, but needs must.

I have a Jim Comstock breather that links back to the frame which is necessary to accommodate the oil flow on start up rather than normally. I use one of the three connections normally used by the standard Norton oil return as the breather return, the one that links to the oil filler neck, located just under my testicles when riding! But I think a certain flow of oil is present here at all times. I would rather have this flow heavy with air go to a separate input up near the steering head, where the tubes that breathe the 'tank' to atmosphere are.

One issue with the Rickman frame is fully understanding the oil flow through the feed pipes and frame tubes. Obviously the frame acts as an oil cooler. And logically you want pump flow to go to the front down tubes, and allow cooling through the tubes presented to airflow there, so that is how I have plumbed it. As delivered from Rickman the return was split front to rear with a simple T piece, and it is difficult to know how the oil chooses to flow through these tubes, let alone how it actually flows through the frame tubes.

Somewhat puzzled that people think you will spend your time staring at the instruments rather than watching your riding. On a road bike it is both valuable and comforting to know the state of your engine. When I put OP gauges on all my bikes it was interesting to see what is going on. Unlike an automobile where changes are slow and or steady, the air cooled engine faces a much tougher life. The difference between riding in summer and autumn, even in the UK, is huge,
so that riding in summer in the states or similar can almost be a show stopper. My Enfield Interceptors face OP shortcomings once you go past 70F. This week at 52F, it was as if I had a real oil pump installed. You would not know any of this if you had no gauge. This winter I will see about either a head temp or EGT dial.
Temp of the oil tank I think is slightly less useful as the oil take time to respond.
Once more with conviction: "Ignorance is not bliss".