Solid State Upgrades to the Charging Sytsem?

chasbmw said:

Remember it was Norton changing the points spec in 1972, that did for main bearings on Combats, not the increased CR etc etc.

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It was a points issue that started the demise of BSA. In their case it was the 12v system causing spark as the points closed & bounced. By the time they sorted it out, the damage to their reputation was done.

chasbmw said:

Generally I find that modern upgrades can be one of those things that keep 40 year old bikes useable and running safely on modern roads

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That's my line of thinking.

Yep the #1 Combat Bomb trigger was the first poor mechanical advance, though their replacement AAU is also infamous for wearing out for back fire starts and not returning to idle. No more being made and very few new one$ remain with vendors so needs tedious machining to restore or get the EI's of your choice. When contact breaker system up to snuff its easier to start on low battery like in the cold campsite and the response is more brisk than most the EI's which have less fast rise curves to serve more universal use as in slower burn heads like in Triumphs. I like points enough to collected a small pile of AAU's to have machinist recover some to keep all factory numbered parts in one of mine. But for the dang Lucas Solid State rectifier regulator system. Norton is solid state in the diodes of rectifier and the Zenor for the voltage regulation, so not jumping fences too far to put in a Tymphanium or Podtronic or many others off vast bunch of motorcycles to pick from, mainly keeping the one or 3 phase application in mind.

Peel had the 210 watt Sparx and worked a treat but still took about 1800 rpm to stay ahead of high beam and brake light on keeping safe descending on loose stuff. Otherwise 120 watt gets kind of dim in same conditions but not going very fast to matter that much and battery still good to fire points next day and recharged on the ride. Boyahs will let ya know w/o a meter if voltage below 10.5 by first kick back fire.

hobot said:

Yep the #1 Combat Bomb trigger was the first poor mechanical advance, though their replacement AAU is also infamous for wearing out for back fire starts and not returning to idle. No more being made and very few new one$ remain with vendors so needs tedious machining to restore or get the EI's of your choice. When contact breaker system up to snuff its easier to start on low battery like in the cold campsite and the response is more brisk than most the EI's which have less fast rise curves to serve more universal use as in slower burn heads like in Triumphs. I like points enough to collected a small pile of AAU's to have machinist recover some to keep all factory numbered parts in one of mine. But for the dang Lucas Solid State rectifier regulator system. Norton is solid state in the diodes of rectifier and the Zenor for the voltage regulation, so not jumping fences too far to put in a Tymphanium or Podtronic or many others off vast bunch of motorcycles to pick from, mainly keeping the one or 3 phase application in mind.

Peel had the 210 watt Sparx and worked a treat but still took about 1800 rpm to stay ahead of high beam and brake light on keeping safe descending on loose stuff. Otherwise 120 watt gets kind of dim in same conditions but not going very fast to matter that much and battery still good to fire points next day and recharged on the ride. Boyahs will let ya know w/o a meter if voltage below 10.5 by first kick back fire.

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Current Boyers work much better at low volts than the old ones, I think down to 7 volts or so.

chasbmw said:

Remember it was Norton changing the points spec in 1972, that did for main bearings on Combats, not the increased CR etc etc.

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What actual information do we have about this change to the Norton points (and/or AAU?) spec. (Lucas part numbers, etc.?)? The only apparent change to the points spec. I can think of, occurred around the beginning of 1973 when the Lucas 10CA points assembly superseded the previous 6CA assembly used on previous Commandos.

Somebody has posted the original motorcyle sport article in the last 2 weeks.

The only place I ever heard about a combat points issue was that article about why the combats died. Whatever change there was was not common knowledge back in 1972 for sure. It was a problem though. Even when the AAUs were lubed they would be OK for about a week then stick at full advance so the idle wouldn't come down. A POS. The slots that limited full advance would get hammered. This is why many of us converted to Boyer in 1973. After that it was 35 years of clear sailing.

chasbmw said:

Somebody has posted the original motorcyle sport article in the last 2 weeks.

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This one?
If so, then I can't find any mention of a: "72 change of points spec." causing problems? Only that the original AAU wasn't up to the job of coping with the load reversal from even the standard 4-lobe Commando camshaft as the AAU often wore rapidly or broke (as I believe Lucas had informed them it would when the factory introduced the "camshaft points" S Type).

"A certain amount of trouble had always been experienced with the centrifugal advance unit....

....failure of the advance unit happened much more quickly with the super-sports camshaft...."

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All of this is exactly why I would upgrade to EI & a more modern charging system.

Points, even the best designs, are in a constant state of degradation from day 1. Even in automobiles, it was a constant maintenance issue. 12,000-15,000 miles in a water cooled V-8 engine before a “tune-up was wise for best performance.

Add the increased volatility of a relatively small displacement, air cooled, parallel twin & it becomes even more of a headache.

To be honest, most of the charging problems I encountered in the early/mis '70s where faults W/the zeneer diode. Easy to diagnose & correct for the short term. Just disconnect the diode, make sure that the headlight is on & limit RPM until you can get home & make a proper repair.

Still, it seems that common consensus is that a 3-phase (higher output) system is needed for EI & the Boyer Box seems like a viable option. As for employing a magneto? Not for me.

Naw even the oldest boyah's did fine on 120 watt single phase if normal size healthy battery used and enough rpm time to recharge or top off at home now and then. I lived though the points era in boats no less, so long know the advantages wisdom of electronic sealed trigger systems with sealed timer brains. Just a matter of time till no more points around but a few that can remake their own AAU's.

L.A.B. said:

chasbmw said:

Somebody has posted the original motorcyle sport article in the last 2 weeks.

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This one?
If so, then I can't find any mention of a: "72 change of points spec." causing problems? Only that the original AAU wasn't up to the job of coping with the load reversal from even the standard 4-lobe Commando camshaft as the AAU often wore rapidly or broke (as I believe Lucas had informed them it would when the factory introduced the "camshaft points" S Type).

"A certain amount of trouble had always been experienced with the centrifugal advance unit....

....failure of the advance unit happened much more quickly with the super-sports camshaft...."

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You may be right, but the point was made in the article that bikes fitted with electronic ignitions and Combat engines lasted twice as long to main bearing failure than the points bikes. I had understood that the problem was with Lucas being forced by Norton to change the spec of the points components to save a couple of bob on each unit.......with the result that Norton paid very dearly in repair costs. My mains went at 4000 miles after a fairly high speed trip to Scotland and back. The Service manager at Gus Kuhns asked how I had been using the bike and when told about 500 mile days on the motorway, to and from Scotland told me with a straight face that "they wouldn't last long being used like that". My internal reply was why did they call it an Interstae then.

chasbmw said:

I had understood that the problem was with Lucas being forced by Norton to change the spec of the points components to save a couple of bob on each unit.......with the result that Norton paid very dearly in repair costs.

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If anything, I think it would have been Lucas doing the dictating to Norton rather than the other way around?

If the pre-'73 Norton AAU and points assemblies are compared with the similar BSA/Triumph items from the same period then I can see no apparent difference in either the construction or build quality of each, however, the '73-on Lucas AAU certainly appears to be a more robust unit.

When was it that norton took over BSA/triumph ?

chasbmw said:

When was it that norton took over BSA/triumph ?

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[Edit: June] 1973.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Villiers_Triumph

Whilst there are those who advocate fixed ignition timing on their Nortons, I fell foul of the shagged out advance/retard unit of my 71 fastback on day one of ownership. Cost me a new pair of pistons (£26 in 1975) replaced round the back of the barrack block on a saturday morning during RAF training at St Athan. Some time later I invested in a strobe and all became clear. Setting the points timing according to the book (Haynes) resulted in a spark fully advanced at about 43 degrees. Trying to bring it back to something sensible resulted in running out of slot. Off with the A/R unit move it round, start again. soon got bored with that and fitted a Boyer-------Night became day and I lived happily ever after The End

ps. it did go like hot snot with 43 degrees of advance though.

I think there are some gross exaggerations in the article. Written as it was, pointing at Norton but not naming Norton, the writer could make up any story he liked and put it in print as though it is fact, no concern about litigation.
If your info is factual, there is no danger in naming the company, the problem with libel shows up when one spreads untruths.
As far as Lucas points ignitions causing big problems, or even resulting in decreased performance, I have not experienced that.
I am a big fan of Electronic ignition and have it on a several bikes, but really there is nothing wrong with the Norton points setup, especially the later type.
I have a converted Norton points setup on my Oz Rapide and it is about the easiest starting, best running motorcycle I have ever owned.
The Lucas points are extremely long wearing and with a bit of annual cleaning can go as far as 50,000 miles before replacement. The only time I ever had a problem with the points setup was when I decided that at twenty thousand miles I should put in some new points. I bought some Japanese replacements for the Lucas and this caused all sorts of grief. The heels wore down about every three hundred miles and closed the gap below 20 thou, which kills the rear cylinder spark.
After that I stocked up on NOS Lucas points and have enough on hand to circumnavigate the globe many times!

As far as power output with this ignition, the bike is exceptional. It went by 31 other twins at the IOM in 2007,including some hopped up machines. On the Sulby Straight it went by five in a row, all riders flat on the tank and doing well over 100 mph.
So I won't be doing away with the points ignition anytime soon. It is easy to carry a complete second ignition system while touring, just two sets of points, the coils, a bit of wire and the condensors. Easy to trouble shoot and work on as well.

Glen

Lucas points on a Rapide, is different from Lucas points on a Norton.

It is a complete Norton ignition fitted to a Rapide. Only change is a 50degree points cam.
If the points will run this far on a Rapide, they will do just as well on a Norton.
The previous owner had the bike for ten years and ran all over Oz with it. He told me, you will really love the electronic ignition on this bike, it is a one kick starter and there are no points to tune up. Evidently he had not looked under the distributor cap in the ten years he had owned it. I was expecting a Pazon or Boyer system and got a bit of a surprise when on inspection there was a Commando ignition fitted. He was also incorrect about the one kick starting. More often than not it is a one half kick starter. Big hot spark at nearly zero RPM.
No complaints about the Boyer fitted to the two Nortons, they work fine as well. Not quite as easy to start tho.
Glen

beng said:

The whole point in having a classic bike should be to keep the past here for people to see, not to keep just it's aesthetic shell and fill it up with computer boxes.

I was very glad to take my time yesterday tearing my Norton apart and resetting the magneto timing with it's mechanical advance mechanism, I was doing something that I could talk about with all the old timers that spent their youth doing the same thing. The same goes for swapping various needles and jets in and out of Amal carbs and playing with the cam timing. You are in communion with the past and keeping it alive for a new generation. It is the antithesis of the shallow and hollow consumerism that has become our western society, and the pockets of craftsmen and mechanics here and there that people might happen upon may be one of the few things that will help save us from ourselves at some point in the future.

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+1 on Bengs comments on hardware.....I have redacted them for the sake of compaction. The remainder that remains deserves more comment.

As an engineer, I appreciate modern upgrades that increase reliability and decrease maintenance. I have several on my Atlas. But all such upgrades should be carefully thought out as to expected gain vs loss of "purity". There comes a certain point where more becomes too much. I once wrote in another post....if you want a modern machine, buy a new one. As Beng says, there is a certain pleasure in keeping our classics back in the Stone Age.

when I was young, I would have included "increases performance" in the above paragraph. I surmise most of us with the classic bikes are old farts or soon to be old farts. These days our races are limited to getting to the rest room!
You will be hard pressed to outperform cc's with your 750 or 850, so scratch performance from your wish list. (aside) I know you are out there Hobot, and one of your girls proffers her taillight to the rice rockets, but I am sure she has lost much of her purity!

For the young men out there, if being the king of the county is your passion ( as it once was mine), keep your classic mostly classic, and get a modern machine to terrorize the locals, or butcher up an old featherbed frame, and stuff in as many cc's as possible.

Good post Beng!

Slick

worntorn said:

It is a complete Norton ignition fitted to a Rapide. Only change is a 50degree points cam.
If the points will run this far on a Rapide, they will do just as well on a Norton.
The previous owner had the bike for ten years and ran all over Oz with it. He told me, you will really love the electronic ignition on this bike, it is a one kick starter and there are no points to tune up. Evidently he had not looked under the distributor cap in the ten years he had owned it. I was expecting a Pazon or Boyer system and got a bit of a surprise when on inspection there was a Commando ignition fitted. He was also incorrect about the one kick starting. More often than not it is a one half kick starter. Big hot spark at nearly zero RPM.
No complaints about the Boyer fitted to the two Nortons, they work fine as well. Not quite as easy to start tho.
Glen

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I think that you have made my point, a set of norton points and AR unit in a distributor outside smoother running Vincent twin, is going to have a much easier life than inside a Norton 750, stuck on the end of the camshaft!

Charles

On the old fart issue, I still use my BMWs as designed, there are quite a few performance improvements available for these bikes, which help you keep up with modern traffic, that runs very much faster than it used to 40 years ago. I'm on the ferry to Spain and my 90/6 is the oldest bike on the ferry, hopefully my aftermarket electronic ignition will keep going long enough to get me to the Mediterranean coast and back :mrgreen:

This is an interesting thread. But I gotta say that it has three distinct topics and maybe a few subtopics and it is getting confusing! Maybe we should have a points vs IE debate thread and a history of Norton points thread going. I for one would be interested to see some feedback on various black box set ups and price comparisons.

About the only thing I have to add to the black box conversation is that you want to make sure that if you have a regulator that requires resistor plugs and/or wires that the ignition is also suited to it. As in a believe that the Pazon Sure-fire actually specifies non-supression wires and plugs. I believe that most black-box regulators require suppression.

Russ