Solid State Upgrades to the Charging Sytsem?

Having endured the joys of "The Prince of Darkness" many years ago, I have no desire to go through that again if/when I take the plunge & get on a used Commando.

I never had much problem W/the stators or rotors of the alternators, but the rectifiers & zener diodes left a LOT to be desired.

I'm aware that there have been modern solid state upgrades to the charging systems developed.

Can anyone clue me in on the best system to employ to improve the dependability of the Commando charging/regulating system?

Ok here we go.

I believe that any Estart unit should have a 3 phase system, rotor, Stator and solid state Reg/Rec unit like a Podtronic.

On non Estart unit a 200 watt stator and a 200 watt Reg/Rec unit and a 14 ah battery of your choice is awesome.

I feel, and it has been my experience over the past few years, that these 3 items are a balanced system and when working together, neither the stator, the reg/rec unit, nor the battery have to work very hard. Some say that this is a little overkill and go with the 130 watt system and the 9ah batteries but they seem to come back wondering what went wrong, while other would suggest a 3 phase for all bikes.

Balance is the key.

Well there are several systems/arrangements available I don't know which is "best". Podtronics works for me . Remember a quality battery is the core of everything. You 're going to $pend here.

With either the RM21 single phase or RM24 three phase, a combined Rectifier Regulator unit is the way to go. Try the Pazon unit, its a good product at reasonable price.

I use the Boyer power box ( rectifier, Zener and 2MC capacitor ) works great.

OK, I didn't specify a kicker only, no electric foot, don't need it, don't want the added weight or the added maintenance. My bad!

Looking for simplicity & reliability W/the best value.

pete.v said:

Ok here we go.

On non Estart unit a 200 watt stator and a 200 watt Reg/Rec unit and a 14 ah battery of your choice is awesome.

I feel, and it has been my experience over the past few years, that these 3 items are a balanced system and when working together, neither the stator, the reg/rec unit, nor the battery have to work very hard. Balance is the key.

Click to expand...

Is the stock MK-I stator 200W? Can you be a little more specific about the "Reg/Rec unit.

Any examples of 14 ah batteries? What about gel cell?

ML said:

With either the RM21 single phase or RM24 three phase, a combined Rectifier Regulator unit is the way to go. Try the Pazon unit, its a good product at reasonable price.

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Please educate me on "RM21" single phase. Are we talking stators here?

staticmoves said:

I use the Boyer power box ( rectifier, Zener and 2MC capacitor ) works great.

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Does the 2MC capacitor act as a "battery eliminator" in case the battery craps out? I ran a capacitor W/O a battery in my '67 A65. I think they were originally used on the “Hornets”. It was about the size of a “C” cell battery & it hung from a spring mount.

That wasn’t the best idea. (not having a battery) Any electrical fault whatsoever & you were immediately in the dark alongside the road. It certainly wouldn’t be a bad thing to have a capacitor as a back up to a good battery though.

Don't even think about 'gel cell'. They won't hold up to the vibration. AGM will. MC2, you can pretty much forget unless you're using points. The EI draws too much current to be effective starting with a dead battery, unless you have a large hill to start from. Once you get it going it 'may' work.

As far as a voltage regulator, it's your choice. Good alternator and rotor will help lots, plenty of choices there. Just spend the $$ for which ever you think is best. Word lately the Sparx are not holding up.

I still use my original rotor, stator, zener and rectifier, but I've dropped the MC2 and gotten a good 8AH AGM battery. It's working for me, but I don't drive at night.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

Don't even think about 'gel cell'. They won't hold up to the vibration. AGM will. MC2, you can pretty much forget unless you're using points. The EI draws too much current to be effective starting with a dead battery, unless you have a large hill to start from. Once you get it going it 'may' work.

As far as a voltage regulator, it's your choice. Good alternator and rotor will help lots, plenty of choices there. Just spend the $$ for which ever you think is best. Word lately the Sparx are not holding up.

I still use my original rotor, stator, zener and rectifier, but I've dropped the MC2 and gotten a good 8AH AGM battery. It's working for me, but I don't drive at night.

Dave
69S

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Sorry, I meant AGM.

BitchinBeezer said:

Is the stock MK-I stator 200W?

Please educate me on "RM21" single phase. Are we talking stators here?

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A single phase 120W RM21 alternator (stator) was standard on all Commandos, except the 850 MkIII Electric Start (and '74 JPN) which had a single phase RM23 180W stator.

Stock 10 amp system with a podtronics reg/rec. Charges at 13.8-14.2 v which is perfect for lead acic battery. Trispark seems to handle low voltage well if the battery is low.

Never had an issue and no reason to change

I run a Joe Hunt maggie so don't need or use a battery at all, but run a battery elimiator to replace the battery, I run the standard charging system, I do have lights when riding at night, not as good as when I have a battery but they do work, but I do most of my riding during the day, but wouldn't hesestate to ride at night when needed, so I don't reliey on a battery at all for my riding enjoyment.

Ashley

:?:

Also, A Reg One supplied by Al Oz, and Norbsa - same capacity as the Podtronics, smaller fit envelope and lot cheaper too. Comes from the same stable as the A reg regulator,been about for years.

Nortiboy said:

Stock 10 amp system with a podtronics reg/rec. Charges at 13.8-14.2 v which is perfect for lead acic battery. Trispark seems to handle low voltage well if the battery is low.

Never had an issue and no reason to change

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I'm wondering if one could go W/the single phae hi-output Podtronics W/the stock 8 amp stator. That way, if needed, an upgrade to the 16 amp single phase stator would be possible.

Start by replacing ALL the female bullet connectors, which, crack and create poor connections.



available here: http://www.britishwiring.com/Bullets-Sn ... s-s/47.htm

My single phase/rectifier/zener works fine, always topped up, halogen light on continually. Just do your inspection/repairs as needed.

The original electrical system Nortons were supplied with from 1964 through the mid 70s is just about bulletproof as long as all the connections are kept in good shape and bikes with points have a boyer ignition installed.

The only time I was ever stranded on a Norton from an electrical problem was when the ignition switch on my old 850 gave up the ghost, but at that point it was 15 years old.

I think whenever these systems go bad it is usually because of poor maintenance, assembly or someone who doesn't know what they are doing connects something wrong or shorts something out trying to work on a hot system.

The Lucas system is really simple, an alternator, diode, rectifier and a battery + whatever sort of switch is needed, not much to go wrong and easy to troubleshoot with a good VOM meter. My Mars meter even has a special setting specifically for zener diodes.

All the modern stuff is great when it works, but if you burn it out it is a lot more money to replace than digging another old zener or rectifier out of your junk box. A good mechanic can get reliable service out of these bikes as built, and I suppose a non-or-bad mechanic can get good service out of them if black boxes are installed that can not be repaired, but just have to be replaced.

beng said:

The original electrical system Nortons were supplied with from 1964 through the mid 70s is just about bulletproof as long as all the connections are kept in good shape and bikes with points have a boyer ignition installed.

The only time I was ever stranded on a Norton from an electrical problem was when the ignition switch on my old 850 gave up the ghost, but at that point it was 15 years old.

I think whenever these systems go bad it is usually because of poor maintenance, assembly or someone who doesn't know what they are doing connects something wrong or shorts something out trying to work on a hot system.

The Lucas system is really simple, an alternator, diode, rectifier and a battery + whatever sort of switch is needed, not much to go wrong and easy to troubleshoot with a good VOM meter. My Mars meter even has a special setting specifically for zener diodes.

All the modern stuff is great when it works, but if you burn it out it is a lot more money to replace than digging another old zener or rectifier out of your junk box. A good mechanic can get reliable service out of these bikes as built, and I suppose a non-or-bad mechanic can get good service out of them if black boxes are installed that can not be repaired, but just have to be replaced.

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Agree 100%. No problems here, and I run points on all my brits so adequate V for the EI is not a concern. Seems they will start no matter what.

If you install a three phase stator and a three phase Boyer power box, you don't have to guess or wonder. You will have all the power you need and the 2MC for back up if need be.
Note: Afordable way to upgrade to a three phase system. as well, if you still want your red charge light to work, just add the "cool Kat warning light similator" ( $25) and your off to the races.

.............. just dont go putting heated grips on your norton with all that new found power......... oops did I say that out loud....... 8)

This thread needs some input on terminology.

"Solid State" simply means a conventional electronic circuit that has no vacuum tubes in it, so the stock Lucas systems were all solid state!

There are what is called traditional analog "control" circuits, that can turn things on and off with relays when they get signals from switches.

What the new Boyer ignitions and possible some other components may offer is "digital" electronics, which means you have a circuit that is able to process data input and change it's output according to some sort of very simple program, you are getting into computer technology now.

All the automatic controls that used to be handled by mechanical devices or control circuits have now been replaced by digital electronics, or you can say they have been computerized.

Digital makes things much easier to manufacture as the whiz-kid engineers can simply choose a standard IC chip to control almost anything you can think of, they can order them from China dirt cheap, solder them onto an appropriate board, attach the needed input and output leads and then encase it in a block of epoxy, finished.

It is a lot cheaper to get things that need to be controlled into production using digital electronics vs. mechanical or control systems, and the digital stuff works great as long as it works, but when it quits working then you throw it in the trash and replace it with a new one, you do not fix it.

The whole point in having a classic bike should be to keep the past here for people to see, not to keep just it's aesthetic shell and fill it up with computer boxes.

I was very glad to take my time yesterday tearing my Norton apart and resetting the magneto timing with it's mechanical advance mechanism, I was doing something that I could talk about with all the old timers that spent their youth doing the same thing. The same goes for swapping various needles and jets in and out of Amal carbs and playing with the cam timing. You are in communion with the past and keeping it alive for a new generation. It is the antithesis of the shallow and hollow consumerism that has become our western society, and the pockets of craftsmen and mechanics here and there that people might happen upon may be one of the few things that will help save us from ourselves at some point in the future.

Boyer developed one of the very first electronic ignition systems, I fitted one to my Interstate back in 1973. Remember it was Norton changing the points spec in 1972, that did for main bearings on Combats, not the increased CR etc etc.

So fitting a Boyer to my Commando is what folks did back in 1973, so I'm very happy to continue doing that. When your Magneto starts to misbehave on a long trip and won't start the bike when Hot, you are going to be even more up the creek without a paddle than the guy with the Boyer as he can get a new black box UPSed to him in 24 hours and I bet you can't do that with a magneto!

Generally I find that modern upgrades can be one of those things that keep 40 year old bikes useable and running safely on modern roads