Slipper Clutch

Alan I thank you for inviting me to put words to the most exciting thing I have left in life as I've known it so far, knowing full well what Peel will be able to do with 3x's more pure torque/mas power never able to snap WOT w/o cutting the thrust so constantly in state of reversed controls especially throttle so slow acceleration rate by twisting up and instant spiked accelerate on throttle let offs. You know what it should feel like on a hot rod where it catches rubber with each up shift that slams deeper in seat then eases up but its always got ya pressed back pulling, that's how Peel was up to 90 by throttle alone.

If you study those silly monkey rig antics you'll see why > nothing land based but SuperKarts - AWD rally cars - ice spiked speedway - handling are too limited for Peel to learn from just how hard they are not to lose control trying to turn. Being so crippled any little gain they get is so incremental it makes great spectator sport neck and neck cliffhangers. Slide vs Drive eh, them sidecars are mostly doing what Peel has to on wet pavement, wet snow, wet grass, wet leaves, wet guts, wet diesel, any power over just matching surface speed rear will slide out so to accelerate must make/allow some slide out just beyond what counter steering needed not to flip so rear thrust guides the rig around, not the front. Basically they steer great either way depending on rear grip/alignment. This is same crossed up posture of cages drifing like flat trackers. SO look closer to see instants of those pulling inside short cut passing snatching straight steer > until they over power rear again and have to save fiipping over back to counter steer, ie: front pointed away from the center of radius, Ie: the freeaking wrong way you really want and need to go. Alan you know how fast intense instants of direction change happen like your throttle up to self/steer tight like your hoss knows it way to the barn hands off, just don't fall off in its rush to get there w/o you.


Above is all only phase 1 parking lot, phase 2 ordinary two tire planted counter steering with some luck out instants into Phase 3, like about to hit a boil instead of turning heat off, ugh. Peel would float two inches level extended leap to 60/1st a bounce to float 2" level blood draining extended leap to 90/2nd with accidental matching of increasing rpm power closely matches increasing traction as speed rose. This extended sense is metaphorical out of mind state sense as actually happed in one half a breath cycle or 4 eye blinks to keep zoom up rates refocusing. Peel would lay down on rails both counter steering if I wanted to end up wide before next drag sprint or while straight steering that'd both slow by both tire side slide I could always steer sharper to point could screw right down to the ground pogo off folded up peg. Learned this on snow on SuVee making snow angles but by gosh learned just short of than could still accelerate and turn with front just kept from interfering with rear thrust vector and holding stem off ground d/t no wheelie traction. Peel laid over so fast far would ram air under her for distinct ground effects, distinctly felt coming off the fork leg eddies interacting with spoke blasts and wind gusts. Not sure how to conquer that unpredicable influence on grip and bike angle but did prove when Peel was completely lifted off surface just beyond ground effects she would hold exact same lean angle as left surface and next instant landing felt like nothing but return of smoothness and accelerating restored to carry on like nothing happened so freaking dramatic. So learning that would hit max power to squeal rear a bit entering so any tip off upright drag launch would snap bike down while holding same throttle so even though now on edges only flywheel effect to hook up then can 'smoothly' throttle as rear sqiated > front lifted inward against breathtaking centrifugal force outward, a sideways unicycle wheelie where forks don't take part in. Getting that down pat wondered if a unicycle and slide, yep but only a tire width or so then HI FLY City!!!!

EURKEA! Peel had a Phase Four advantage in control, exactly as ya see the GP ITT and Irish mania cycles flipping surprised pilot off saddle to carry em along side a ways till they hop back on sheepishly, if lucky. I think this could be Peels main way to enjoy her capacity and well know if she can't do that in long sweepers or tight chiances like GP winners do on their cripples then may not work as well as desired. P-4 is only time I feel frame/stem twist out of line about and inch at pegs and Peel can hold that pressure a lot longer than anything else but that also means must be drag racer accelerating to hold that level G pressure on so must let up at some point which releases frame energy. Peel could ease off to 'save' a ruined turn in time or more fun cut power like letting go of sling shot, BANG GONE no traction or power needed and easy to aim fire from the hip. Truly Peel LSD flashed me back to dead family times of b/w tv show downs of single action pistols fanning faster than any modern gun can. Spend some time thinking how in the world a motorcycle can handle pavement like these do ice. I had good Karma to own 2 Norton that floated level dusting all comers through power band though Peel mostly kept a toe hold d/t 2" extra fork extension so still in good control counter steering beyond what short snot cripples can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oKVANz1dsw

After watching a handful this one made me grunt groan and squeal like on Peel with the intense pressure with instant wipe outs I want to control. Not road racing down hill though where slowing down more troublesome.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBFz-eErnfM&list=PLOSU6hi_6gu8vCOx27adJZk1bQy2gyHI4&index=9[/video]

One thing that Mick Doohan learned was if the rear end slides out on a MotoGP bike turn away from the direction of the slide and put it on the ground. In that fatal Marco Simoncelli crash, he was shot into the path of the bikes coming up behind him. With a dirt bike the rear wheel is unlikely to gain enough grip to hi-side you so easily.

Oh my Alan you grab my attention again --> like a spear through the heart on downed riders on corner cripples. I did life/death tests in public blinds trying to get Peel to low or hi side out of control and flat could not so I have loss respect for cycles that kill pilots instead of just naturally leading them to transition into better way around. Best stated as Uncanny Flabbergasting Fabulous! I sense your Sleeley could do most of what Peel can up to point frame or tire must give then same dangerous over rigid surprise. I did not learn on Peel I learned on SuVee and corner school so know even moderns can do all 5 phases but get too unpredictable to enjoy and work me to a plup so leave them to young bucks.

There's lots of confusion on the nature of the surfaces being discussed as each type has different quirks to adapt to. Worst have greatly varying grip. To stop a fast moving bike is same as dumping a low side on purpose like in the Burt Monroe beach run or the wheeling Commando in movie Stone, ya snap tank slap furhter counter steer so bike and fold up on axle/stem gimble joint towards the ground as straight steer snap is what induces the hi side as bike can't fold up on its gimble joint but upward. Main surface type is beaten/paved vs raw rough angled off road which is beyond this subject scope. Grass, snow, sand and dirt are in same league of handling loose of grip and the more knobs and cleats the better. Tires can bit into these surfaces rather securely and dampen drag slides down pretty guick after loads let up. THE Gravel & pavement are the same to me because tires can't dig into them only spin or slide on top. The more slick and soft the tire the better it works on THE Grit or tarmac. Knobs/grooves just roll on rocks to throw em for too little thrust mass reaction to matter but race compound folds over rocks trapiping them from rolling so can push off them before thrown behind for a bit of distinct help of ballistic steering rocket once drift/slide induced so tire on top of ball bearings again.

THE Slutty Shitty Stuff lets go too easy and takes too re-grip I will never master it so its my Master that require blood and guts and breaks offerings. Peel totally conquered pavement cycle are too dangerous for them to follow Peel so await more power to increase her strafing speeds. Main trick on all surfaces is always be on power till conditions ease up to allow back off slowing for next on power attack interval. My main fear on Peel is to run out of tire squealing acceleration before exits. Engine power alone is what steers beyond phase 2.


Young bull on a hill nudges old bull, hey lets run down there and do a cow,
Old bull ok you run along. I'll just moozy on down then do em all.

Steve, I don't believe there is a smooth transition between the handling of your bike on dirt and mine on bitumen. Most of the modern MotoGP riders have come up through motocross. The worst example would have to have been the Australian rider Gary McCoy. It was all about spectacular slides and desperate moves, and he won races doing it. However he did not go far. My riding style is always about being smooth precise and rapid. If the bike gets loose, it's simply a matter of 'that's nice, dear' and I ride through it. When it happens it is nearly always unintended. I think it's a question of mentality. I've ridden MX bikes and I don't like them - too many injuries a low speeds. And that's the complaint the parents whose kids ride on our MX circuit at Winton often express. The move to road racing is too expensive.

Again and again Alan you show you know your stuff racers edge riding, when a bit slower aint' fast as ya can yet just a bit fast is way too fast > SPAAT. Each phase change of energy handling is instantly distinct different from the one just before but get less different as ya move up handling state phases. Going from parking lot upright speed can suddnely hi side at 15 mph is not 'automatically' leaning into turn while counter steering. This used to crash me each ride on THE Grinder going below 15 mph with rocks sometimes holding sometimes not so sometimes fine to parking lot ride it carefully for instants bars would snatch counter steer w/o me leaning too Pow on my butt pieces missing off bikes. Going in and out of phase 2 & 3 is what onsets tank slap and invention steering damper crutches. Braking is similar - gets better8better right up to tire let go. Its like you stated a number of times prior - a poor handling cycle only trains ya not to go around so harsh as desired on it. Some are better than others on a particular corner cripple but they are risking life/limb to pull off again and again as what makes all other cycles so corner crippled to me is they get so unpredictable - too much luck enters equation. I'm no longer willing to take such risks nor expend such effort to get em to thru crazy states of tires squriming on contact area, vibes of engine + frame + wind + surface grip varying below pilot awareness. Elites must learn to ride within limits of their cycles, my joy is I've so easy found those limits on moderns but ain't been able on Peel going rather harsher more G's and in wilder surfaces and conditions than off road or sports bikes tolerated in their element. If ya only sticking to smooth flying then always stuck on rails to me. Smooth is both the best way to fly a cripple but also the worst state for them as allows time for resonances to build up w/o pilot awareness d/t all the slish/slashing over rigids conceal til the last big splash of various vibes, instant transition into new phase of handling that a pilot my not be able to recover in time. What was hardest for me to get past was knowing if didn't transition w enough extra energy to fully transition then what it took to control the slip out with reversed controls to carry on > would next instant be the wrong thing to do as slowed back to normal control action state > SPLAT. Ya can't leap across a 4 ft wide gap by only leaping out 3 feet so best leap to land 5 feet to other side for an extra foot of safety reserves. Watching elite video ya'll see the faster they go the more chance they have of recovery as pure ballistics delays effects of tire traction changes its possible to get thing settled in line with the room available in most race tracks but too often take others with them before they can. Basically I almost quite cycles permanently in one night in '01 on river climb out SuVee began fish tailing to climb so was sliding off wrong banked curve to drop off into trees on fist size loose stones decided to crash ahead of time and leave bike where it landed so went bezert hill climber mania that re gained control by riding rear on rocket thrust only like a jet ski to top out the climb into 90's hook I flat tracked around and just stayed on it like crazy hitting center berm and ruts and all angles, striking limbs at oblique angles, same a hitting steer curbs this way and that 45-70 mph.

One of the most revealing things to watch for on elite video crashing in slow motion is see God like skill holding accelerating cycle about 65' over so smoothly expertly till the pilot butt and hanging off raises CoG too far away from axles or tire patches > it pivots on CoG to lift both tires horizontal a foot+ above track to instantly fly out on the tangent like a bowling ball taking down pins of other bikes going just a tad slowing still in control. That simiply can not happen on Peel which if I did nothing unusual but ride her smoothly in elite racer style, ie: leaned at constant amount while slightly over powered rear in counter steering she just slides both tires on surface outward while holding same lean and fork angle till slows enough in that direction to just carry on the planned turn from bit wider easy position - as if nothing happened. This type slide is not like a flat track which is crossed up trying to keep rear from slinging out too far with maybe 2 ft between tire traces, Peel would slide fully sidesways w/o crossing up or twisting on CoG by rear swing out. I'd use this extension of normal phase 2 handling if a pilot was on the inside in the way, would just let Peel slide outward w/o getting crossed up rear spin stopped by easing up on throttle, not a power chop, to get a bit of jerk forward as flywheel effect hooked up to let me know could then get on more a lot more power to pass the slow pokes like parking lot cones.
Leaned thin on SuVee on THE Gravel mostly on tight turns that were rather banked so would just let her slip up hill to slow one direction as converted that energy into forward motion into next line of aim. Does not feel like steering at all more like just sliding in a log chute or toboggan ice runs that guide craft w/o pilot.

Before I'll be able to handle next Peel power I'll start crashing practice on THE Grit then lumpy pasture grass then parking lot stunts of all types then hit Mt twisties then off to see if track instructors can keep Peel in video view.
I don't think anything can match an isolastic thin steel tube rubber baby buggy with head and breast compliant rod links and very robust rump rod. Goldie Locks solution to me.

'Again and again Alan you show you know your stuff racers edge riding, when a bit slower aint' fast as ya can yet just a bit fast is way too fast > SPAAT.'

Steve, my knowledge comes from riding a nasty bike in competition. You don't become a good rider by riding a bad bike. If you had the opportunity to adjust to a MotoGP Ducati, your riding would probably improve out of sight. I have the feeling that it is possible for most riders to go much faster in safety if they are trained and informed. When I get rich again, I might attend a Superbike training school.

Alan your details match my own exactly and recognize in your reviews all the issues over rigid or fatso tire cycle uspet us with so there is nothing more for me to learn on existing elites but how unhealthy they get w/o much warning. You see em wiggle and skip and judder that pilots have to get used to, so did I but elite pilots some dead now also say they often just hanging on praying it works out right. If I was just into sense of terrific speeds and turning on unstable craft I'd of stuck to boats but then would be in same class as everyone else. Peel is my only chance to get my kix against seeming more capable handling cycles. I paid like $3000 over a weekend to learn corner schools got nothing to teach me and banned from returning dt school almost broke up over owner over ruling his instructors ganged up not to let me out again and again and again. Take it as bragging but this is life death stuff ego has little space but to test self skills to handle forces controlling fear to keep on quickly finding new ways to crash em yet recover in time. Other cycles can't handle the power planting G's Peel could handle or we'd see more of it. Few pilot will risk what I did on em to find out everything I care to know on moderns w/o dying on em as almost did that weekend but not when cornering at all.

School had a handful of guys, some real racers and others attended for years, yet ran off into raw desert 50-60's mph - all crashed - some ambulanced away, one life flighted out. I hit ~140 on longest straight heading into biggest wide sweeper when slow pokes crossed lanes to inside so let off aimed off edge slowing to shoot into desert at 90's mph freaking horrified then sternly told self face it like THE Gravel ride it on light controls easing both brake till controllable and eased back around on track to carry on. No way would I want to do that again on a sports bike but its what I do on Peel just commuting before pavement. I tend to ride about 15 20 mph faster on THE Gravel in turns sharper than hwy as no police and steering lighter on a hard plane.

I think a session at a superbike riding school might be a good way of getting up to speed on modern road racers. I've never had the luxury of being able to do 'point and squirt' with that sort of power.

Steve, these days I cannot often afford the $200 to do a practice session at Winton. A while back I used to do a few. There are usually young blokes there with Fireblades and R1s who get going fairly quickly. With the Seeley it is difficult to even stay ahead of them for any length of time. One of them has complained that the circuit is unsafe. He does the 'point and squirt' thing and is often out on the ripple strips. With my bike you always have to know where they are when you are in a corner at the same time. If you turn under them and get the power on quicker, there is often a coming together some distance down the next straight as they come down under full power off the ripple strip.

Again and again you show me you know your racer slicing/dicing/dodging details. You do not need to take a track school as you got the physics down in your very bones to apply very quickly once sensing modern cycles cripple behavior and adapt accordingly. To me its like watching wheel chair basket ball which is fair game until someone leaps out of chair to make a basket shot.

I had a hint I could do off road antics on moderns on tarmac but didn't know for sure and public blinds was too freak out to try so soon as I could I got a Ninja 900 so far over peg fold pinched foot out so put foot on rear axle nut then knee hit so stretched leg out tighter against tank then chin fairing fouled and if mine would of just ground through it but worried about bike desposit so didn't - then said to self DO WHAT YA CAME FOR, nailed it to spin rear mostly expecting to end my riding days but instead became like Superman flying dream come true able to toss modern around in any line I liked apexing anywhere/time I pleased a number of times in turns the experts only showed one big X marked apex, pashaw.

What did upset me/Ninja was the tank slapping/frame juddering going into above states fighting tire conflicting vectors to feel like sliding side ways over fresh plowed field, so gritted teeth and helped it hi side just before it did on its own w/o me, to find frame/forks would settle out in air for *mostly* predicable landing posture to survive riding a cripple beyond its innate limits. So 2 things make other cycles dangerous to me, one ya can't quite predict which area of tire or what point in the tank slapped frame alignment the launch or landings occur so just too much dumb luck to have fun instead of scared to death.

Alan here's 1st attempt 3 yr ago of video mount, on passenger peg which loosened soon as I started but slapped back in line after a bit. Traveling faster than safe commute 55-85 instead of 45-65 for dodge reserves. Was kind of sliding drifting anyway but not crossing up. Just a bit faster the rear starts fish tailing more and more so must transition into classic flat tracker just as easy as pie but to do so here is Russian Roulette. Hard to see turn radius but would be marked 35 if on hwy. At end I snick down to a stop from 70's for my sense w/o a slipper on marbled lube by electric repelling dust. The rattle is muffler baffle breaking up and likely some chain wear whip touching gaurd. Can hear I snap some power in on down shifts. I take some pride ya can't hear any tire slide on stopping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpdHnjjoPF0

Steve, I was watching this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msBIB7zwzlY

Found it interesting. If you are playing on the dirt, wouldn't a P11 or N15 be better ? For a long time I've intended to do a video of the Seeley starting up. It sounds a lot different to your bike, however your videos might be a bit deceptive as far as sound goes.
One thing about a slipper clutch. When I was racing the short stroke 500cc Triumph, you only had to blink and you crashed. I learned to become extremely smooth, however It should not be that difficult. The Seeley 850 is a whole new world - I love it - only ever confidence, never apprehension or anxiety. It was really pretty funny, the Triumph turned me into an instant dud. My brother rode it once and sailed off the end of the front straight of Calder raceway, he couldn't turn it. Then the same day another fairly good rider got on it and looked stupid. It was a really nasty piece of garbage - fast enough but very dangerous. ( I actually liked it - big adrenalin rush.) With the Seeley you just turn the handle and think where you want to go, the bike does the rest as long as you keep pedalling it. I just wish I had got my head in the right place when I could afford to race it regularly.

With that 500cc Triumph, I was out at Calder back then and a friend had a 250 Suzuki on methanol with which he had won a few races. We went at it hammer and tongs for about 50 laps of the mile circuit, swapping places and getting more desperate as we went. Eventually he got ahead of me going up the main straight and pulled off to the side. I stopped and asked him what was wrong - he said he'd had enough '250 beats 500'. He was always good for a laugh, however I'm grateful to him for the experience. After I'd built my own methanol fuelled T250, I found out just how fast they could be. Make any four stroke twin look stupid. The guy that bought it won 28 races and five championships with it. It wasn't what I wanted to race - pain in the butt !

The only modern bike I've ridden was a VFR 400 Honda, it felt impossible to crash. However I couldn't get more that 180 KPH out of it. Later somebody told me they are speed limited. It was a bike owned by my wife's girlfriend. Her partner has a GSXR 1000 Suzuki. He was scaring me when I watched him going around bends on a country road ahead of me. It had trees all around the outside of the bends. I was doing 180 KPH, you can imagine what he was doing. I hate to think of young kids riding that stuff even though they might be much safer than old bikes. Eventually they must still find the limit.

Snooping around are ye. That was Trixie Combat fumble start and brake failure after some months of recovering its rough life collective decay. Gravel video was onTrixie, a good time later, not Peel so nothing to brag on except i didn't crash going faster than smart around there for a sense of speed. I like hearing your contests and different cycles character and envy you for the priceless memories. Beats snot out of stewing over some lost flame or soulmate scars. I never found Peel's limits on or off road as she only lasted 3 good seasons/9 mo before over rev event took her wheelie power and punch over the ton away - so began decade long set backs for a dream machine to find pecking order with what ever & in what ever element its made for. Peel's an outlaw so just data logging track days & games with track hot shots, though expect word might get out for some planned showdowns. The advantage Peel delivered was not neck and neck till packs would catch up in long wide opens. To play games I'm prepping for requires under 10sec 1/4 mile and strong pull to at least 160. I'm depending on the Norton power character for corner secutity as you love describing your 850 pleaser. Got notice today engine to be shipped shortly and I just got Peel ready to recieve it. No video exist for Peel as still in chemical photographic era.. Its this decade or never.

Steve, we've all had the relationship bullshit. There are more important things in life. Sometimes when I discuss bike handling with you, the good memories and the crashes come back to me. I had the late life divorce and I'm now happily remarried and caring for my stepdaughters two lovely infants. I have only one regret about how I've lived my life - I didn't do enough road racing. In all the stress of raising kids and studying and working and buying houses, it is important to sometimes be selfish and do something purely for yourself. Winton Motor Raceway is 11Km up the road. I will get there again.

Alan you are a mentor-therapist to me beyond our stupid cycling addiction. Survived offing myself on a number of soul mate break ups and then should of died a handful of times but for pure Grace and training from the prior tests of will to survive deadly suffering. Got it made in shade last 25yr plus with Alicia Tinkerbell gal they wear me into a puddle dancing our tiny asses off with stadium class home stereo. Don't know what all Peel can deliver me into and beyond but life is short so shooting for the stars or Hades on her. D/t my various unintend events traction is a digital concept to me, on or off, so I will not feel competent to push Peel into her hi speed decreasing-screw down radius antics till I can swing her around on grass and Gravel to roll backwards a bit then reverse by a forward wheelie leap ahead. That's after I learn to throw her down fully sideways to use both tire edges and frame drag to stop short as a snow skiier. May have to put on sleds or dolly wheels on crash cage so it don't just plow right in hi side city into what I wanted not to hit. The hardest shock that still takes me down daily is 2 yr younger brother Dale dying in sleep so never got to ride with me after we retrieved Trixie to have 2nd cycle but deer struck me 1st 3wks so hard took 3 yr to recover me and cycle, then bad piston let go for another yr delay with homestead crisis priorities interferring, then a rod bolt broke, so everything I do that's similar to our time together flashes him back then others missing in action for a type of PTSD. I flash on the blood, bone, guts and brains of people and animals seen or spilled by me commutes so don't know if its deathwish or FU finger to fate everytime i even think about ridding let alone face making it to end of driveway almost dying a number of time in that 1/2 mile 'comfort' zone. I've been around some Vietnam shooting survivers, bad to the bone criminals once let loose back home to be shot with 45 in chest yet their body memory/neurology saved them beyond expectation to survive trial and prison time. Kind of like that for me but karmic feedback events now prevents me form using it agaisnt others for fun or profit anymore. Ever had all this splash so hard inside ya unsuited unable to face it, I have a handfull of times = tail between legs taking a cage instead of living it up on a cycle. Safe Journeys.

Steve, if you want to stay alive the answer is fairly simple 'festina lente' - make haste slowly. Work up to your corners and perfect the technique. I believe I've thought of a way to make the cush drive clutch slip controllably on back-off. It consists of brazing a hardened ring onto the internal spider with three ramps machined into it. Then use a disc with three pins which protrude through the cover plate onto the ramps to lift the pressure plate on back-off. I think it will be great for allowing two down-changes in quick succession with the 6 speed box. The normal clutch rod and plate adjustment could be used.

I've got a question for you fellas. If you have a slipper clutch, is it still possible to start the motor by spinning the back wheel or using a kick starter ?