Slipper Clutch

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'. There is a saying I've heard, When in Doubt Gas IT! '

I believe in that. Most bikes are set up to come under control when gassed and to become stable under brakes. That is why if your front brake drags it can take you off the road when rounding a bend. It is a really horrible confidence-destroying experience. In the application I envisage for the slipper clutch on a commando, normally it would not operate unless you accidentally changed down into the very low ratio first gear while travelling quickly. The top 3 gears of the American 4 speed CR box are perfect. I wouldn't ever want to go back to push start races, however the clutch start puts a 4 speed commando at a distinct disadvantage in road racing .
 
One thing about motorcycling they can sure impress you on over sight errors in rush of the moment. Push stating has a special place in my life especially on the P!! dragster. Its clutch would get stuck up sitting overnight and didn't know nothing nor tools to doing anything about it [age 20 nil money student]. So light could not stop tire smoking against a wall so would run it down housing street that was not very straight or long with cars parked both sides. Hopped on about 15 mph to snick 2nd at WOT to get the engine torque to break free in full bore drag race launch and always lucked out it did break free before street sharp turn or oncoming traffic appeared. I'm so old fashioned I never want rear tire doing nothing when in a hurry around turns, either thrusting like crazy lifting front out of effectiveness or dragging enough its snags rear enough to slow in one direction w/o brakes while converting the energy into a new one with a pop up hi side either keeping tires on surface or flying up off surface a little or a lot. Never used that extreme style to dice it up with the hot shots here, only after Peel left them behind in easy normal counter steering security for space to really kick up heels. Highest speeds so far able to pull that off were 55=65 in 2nd squaring off 10-15 marked switch backs on lumpy plateau face semi paved wagon trail. 40-45 was as harsh as I could get my handy SV650 thru there till it became unpredictable/uncontrollable on its rigid mounted hot fat race only tires and upgraded suspension modeled after SV650 racers online. With that much difference I lost interest in buzzy moderns to get off on. The buzziness of solid engine mount on tire grip really shows up on THE Gravel paths at slow enough speeds to comprehend it but harder to tell on pavement till going so fast pilots can't sense it ahead of time. All kinds of forces working though tires in various frequencies and vectors that can splash together suddenly magnifying insignificant ones out of control. No thank you very much.
 
I had a conversation with my brother a short time ago, about his Vincent sidecars on speedway. Once the formula is established which gives best result, it is difficult to move away from it. The consequences of trying to use a close box or MX tyres can be horrendous. The way the power is delivered on dirt is very important. Bikes such as the speedway Jawa are highly optimised, and the riding styles of most competitors are very similar. The strangest thing must have been the Yamaha TZ750 solo that Roberts rode on the dirt. I don't know why anyone would even attempt to do that. I suppose it's because if you don't try , you would never know.
 
Well my still tingling shockeroo was finding what worked best on THE Gravel for Commandos or modern paid back in spade on the easy paved stuff. So you and your brothers feedback is more proof how corner crippled rest of the world is at least on in line 2 wheels though side cars can pull off drift corners straight steering now and then too. Glad you survived the thrills and spills as not everyone does even when not their fault.
 
Steve, there was only ever one crash I had which I felt really had the potential to kill me. I don't forget about it. I'm always very careful about where I stick my neck out these days. It is not a matter of going slower, that doesn't change anything.
 
So far ain't never crashed doing a turn too harsh but almost died a number of times on cycles for other reasons so while other may feel fine unless racing i always asking self if a good day to die, just to putter out to mail box and back. More than once suited up,I could not get in denial state like normal people so shut off unsuited and took cage or stayed home. So far the harshest turning forces I've experiences was water skiing behind Cigarette level speed boats on smooth river, over powered tunnel hull boats and Ms Peel whoose had the tightest radius to strain wrists and drain brain blood as much so not sure which is the better handling as all three can leave surface to short cut turning delays. Stunt planes can pull similar to more G's but they drift too wide doing it to count much to me. I don't let a cycles behavior surprise me as I aggressively test fouling angle, max fork angle and max power loads on up and dn steeps on nice banked and wrong banked turns till too nuts for me. Ain't found a single fault or limit on Peel yet but 4 gallon tank slosh in mid air that can't keep up crossing tank distance before Peels already a bike length ahead of it sideways and ground effects lift drop ramming air in so far over. When a cycle turns broncho on ya its time to back off of give it the spurs like ya can't believe but beyond scope of ordinary motorcycles too rigid or too flexy &or poor GoG placement.

One thing about cycles is how well they can take very sharp short hi force inputs and how poorly they can hold near maxium loads in equilibrium. Smoothest only applies to corner cripples any little extra jiggle POW TO THE MOON...
Slipper Clutch
 
I believe I might have thought of a fairly easy way to get my Norton clutch to slip on back-off. I'm using the early dominator style clutch with the cush hub in the centre. I think that if I remake the spider with a longer sleeve to the front which can contact the usual witches hat on the end of the actuating rod, I can use a ratchet at the back of the spider to get it to move forward as the load moves onto the clutch at back-off. I think that in the modern slipper clutches the whole set of plates and the carrier move forward to lift the pressure plate free. It is probably not necessary to do that. I don't know if diaphragm clutches have a cush centre.
 
Alan you don't sound like a fella that backs off much in a lean to benefit with a slipper clutch and there's plenty of occassions to use some engine drag on throttle chops but go ahead try it and see. Up to 10-ish % slippage actually helps some to stay in grip so a trained throttle and gear selctor pilot may do better w/o a
'corner cripple' crutch.
 
hobot said:
Alan you don't sound like a fella that backs off much in a lean to benefit with a slipper clutch and there's plenty of occassions to use some engine drag on throttle chops but go ahead try it and see. Up to 10-ish % slippage actually helps some to stay in grip so a trained throttle and gear selctor pilot may do better w/o a
'corner cripple' crutch.
Steve, I back off while leaned over going into corners, usually right down to the apex while changing down at the same time, then get straight back on the gas. If I get balked it is easy to lose track of what gear I am in and can accidentally reach first gear. It's not a problem with the normal high first in a 4 speed CR box. However if a very low first was fitted, it would probably mean a crash. I don't intend to use the 4 speed CR box in the Seeley again as I now have the 6 speeder. My problem is that I don't know how close the 6 speeds are, and might still have to fit a lower first gear to get the bike moving off the clutch start. Another thing - until now I thought the 4 speed CR box was now redundant, a slipper clutch would change that. I might build another Brit Bike.
I know Fast Eddie thought it was a bit strange when I mentioned counting gears while racing. I always try to know what gear I'm in. It stops the situation where the bike bogs down and also the accidental over-rev. If you are committed in a given situation you always need to know what the bike is going to do - it has to be there when you need it ? Otherwise you look for a soft place to land.
I apologise if I gave you the wrong impression, my concern is only about first gear, not the higher ones. If a very low first gear was fitted to a CR box with the rest all high, the commando engine would never respond to accidental selection of first gear, the rear wheel would have to lock and slide.
 
Ok I do get the adrenalized gear counting surprise in heat of the rush. I have to ride as if always on THE Gravel so don't ever slow down while leaning > so it never catches me out again on grit, blood or mud. THE Gravel taught any dividing of tire vectors substracts too much from maxing out acceleration, slowing or leaning load hook up so taboo to me unless not in much a hurry. D/t the wide factory ratios I did have to pretend I was on a 125 cc to carry more speed going in or get left far behind by the better power to weight moderns on exiting straighting up ability. You seem to do very well amoung other rigid frame racers so need a pow wow on regrowing your spine/brain stem to keep your younthful reserves up proving out your better going ratios. My style is a variation of point/shoot, slow up like crazy while still full upright, to be slow enough can snatch it over sharply with WOT into and out. This has me on brakes down shiting very early with the more powerful cycles either catching up or passing me just before they begin trail braking then they are like slow moving parking lot cones to zing around and lose more ground than they can make up for unless rather long space between leans.
 
Some road racers such as Kenny Roberts came off the dirt and are not averse to doing slide and drive on the bitumen. With today's extremely powerful bikes and excellent tyres the technique seems to work well. People such as myself are stuck in a time warp. We concentrate on being 100% smooth, nimble and definite. The slide and drive technique is an extension of 'point and shoot'. Both approaches work well, however with an old commando we don't usually have the horsepower to do 'point and shoot/slide and drive' on the bitumen. On the dirt the situation is obviously different. Unfortunately we have to play with what we've got, however the commando is a good bike - 'it is not what you've got but the way you use it'. My problem has always been in finding a 'level playing field' - race classes in which you are on somewhere near equal terms. I'd really love to see a modern development race class which caters entirely for air cooled 500cc four stroke singles, and another for air cooled 1000cc four stroke twins. I don't think there is much point to racing if you don't develop the bike, you might as well play table tennis.
I really liked seeing this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMkLu0ZNtRc
 
I'm long seasoned daily routine smoooth operator for safety reserves and tire wear on cages and cycles as best way around w/o control changes or surprises. Most racing turns are more like sweepers so best done smoothly counter steering, as long as done slow enough not to loose control. It only takes a little bit more speed lean or steering to chirp or screechHHH tires out of line a few silly mm's to half a bike length apart. Some can take advantage of this to get bike steered more in line upright w/o loss of momentum but more risky - similar to how wide a crumbly sloped edge crevice you are sure you can jump over each time in Mt. climbing. There must be rather high rear tire drag on throttle chops to do this and not slide too wide, as its easy as pie to leap out of line - across a gap - but tricky getting a sharp re-hook as key to safe 'landings' or limiting slide in time. If Not enough-quick re-grip its a waste of time, too much slip + nil re-grip could end one's time. To have much 'safe' fun on un-tamed isolastic requires smooth nerves to stay just at limits of wiggle worm onset > slightly below Cdo's escalating hinging level that once onsets gets distinctly worse on reducing throttle too fast and can get way worse if giving more throttle trying keep tire pressure resistance against it. If anyone can tel us if a slipper will be better in vintage class you are Alan so encourage you to find out. Main thing about cornering is always be on hi pressure so no neutral intervals occurs that allows things to begin bouncing in rhythm till out of step SPLASH.
This is how I enter all fast turns of any radius or steepness going slow enough at the begining I can always keep good pressure on everthing to keep settled better.

My favorite lines [if no hazards] is to 'slightly' lean in to load suspension so mostly aiming furthest into fairly sharp turn's outside edge then VERY Sharp Sudden Jerky Everthing Snatch over to hopefull end up aimed for most straightest longest path out of there. By 'slightly leaning I mean almost the same as other cycles holding that lean to do the whole turn but would slip out if holding that much pressure on though their apex points.
I think this is similar to what is called double apex turning. I look up to those who have mastered their craft. I'm not there yet - too many long intervals of severe cycle or me recoveries, so hardly ridden most a decade+ so far.
 
I think you need to counter steer your commando because it is set up to be relatively stable. With my bike I don't consciously lean into any corner, it just happens. The bike stays relatively upright while it tightens it's line and you apply power. I think this sort of steering if used on an isolastic commando would probably crash you very quickly. It is extremely precise and quick and you need to anticipate where the bike will take itself if you relax and consciously don't steer it through corners. If you gas my bike hard from mid-corner you usually get the best result. I know the MotoGP guys use extreme angles of lean, however I suggest you might take your bike around a bend on the bitumen fairly quickly and see how vertical you can keep it, especially if you lean your body or climb off a bit. Even with standard steering geometry, you will probably be surprised. I've probably been conditioned not to lean too much by the shit tyres I used to race with as a kid. The steering geometry can help you turn with less sideways force than you might expect - sort of like tip-toeing around. In the worst situation, if you hit the grass you can stand the bike up vertical and drag it around with as little brake as possible (crash mode).
 
Ho Ho Ho Alan you got your self quite a handler and skill set to be able to express such wonderful ease of control. Type of cycle has little to do with when it needs pilot countersteering and only down side of the Commando is they can put so much turn pressure down they can start rebounding form wind and road lumps taking the pressure off in instants, otherwise tamed with full set of links I can't believe how predicable secure and effortles s to control. Certainly ridgids have it over rubber baby buggies but to be blunt your descriptions are only phase 2 energy handling but at least can use that to crank in tighter which ain't lost on me but its like staying in 2nd gear instead of up shift to keep going around rather faster. To be blunter Ms Peel handles so fast and sharp a human can not move bars strong or fast enough to react in time so I ain't working forks nor holding on any harder than to keep throttle twisted and actuall let go right at the orgasmic releases. Only time I have to hold Peels bars is to damper the front down when drifing a few bike lengths sideways crossed up, front going sideways in counter steering or straight steering hits bumps that jossle forks too much other wise. When Peel set a lean angle I could and did climb around bike to see what happened and if helps turning in any way, nope didn't matter once Peel set in a radius everything like auto pilot and took pilot effort to change another angle or radius. Perfect nuetrality to point is all I think about getting more of soon as I can. Slippers are not Peel in style razor sharp hard ice skates are. Safe Journeys in the mean time.

There is one stunt I want to learn a slipper might help, leap forward till spining rear flips around so bike going backwards then pop clutch to stop it and wheelie off forward. Doing half of this half way around is by far fastest way to stop but requires leaning on frame rails doing it or hi side city, the full 180's require mostly upright spin of CoG.
 
I don't think I've ever raced a bike which consciously needed positive counter steering to tip into a corner. However I think a lot of guys these days race using relatively unmodified road bikes. I know in our historic racing there are not so many bikes with trick frames. In fact one of the guys who runs the meetings is biased against them - I cannot imagine the reason - to my mind it is what racing is all about. I think the problem is that many of the fellas don't recognise the handling difference when they get on a genuine racer. If you don't ride them a certain way they can feel just like any other motorcycle. Of course the other thing was that the 70's benchmark - the TZ350 Yamaha was set up to be neutral - designed for 'point and squirt'. The Maxton TZ350 was a very good bike - like the one that Williams won the IOM Senior on.
 
You got me going with your extremist handling adventures and bring up a very sore point of mine, the more race oriented the more ya cam press and the more ya can press the wilder weirder pilot must try to control. Peel is so different than anything else I've tried to kill myself on, just couldn't lean far enough steering sharp enough or over power enough to break free of ordinary counter steering ease/sane security to point she'd literally pull a sideways wheelie off frame fouling lean to aim and land very sharp w/o much of my attention or effort. This is when I 1st got dimmed tunnel vision of blood drain - to have to lock breath into upper neck/head before pulling trigger d/t strong re-coils or next instant road details blurred and bluff face zooming up so fast eye lens could't refocus fast enough. I've many crashes in many activities too fast to see well but never doing it on purpose before. Peel really did out race both crashes into control range and faster than fear can follow the glee orgasms which also projected my point of view ahead of me like yogis, fighters and crash victims.
That's Phase 3 energy transition and never once slipped up in most dangerous bluff face road around. This allows accelerating all the way through a crazy decreasing radius turn up hill down hill and wrong way banked.

Flabbergasting solo flings 'll never get out of my bones. I think Peels dampered flex w/o rebound somehow absorbs road wind and my own interferes plus Norton getting it pretty right with bike length, CoG and 27' front rake/trail. After skill to prep for insane grip Peel could develop in P-3 i found if I got to fouling wheelie point and cut throttle rear hooked to twist up about inch worth to snap a hi side off rear tire to fly up twisting in air to land at correct lean to finish pop upright, in line with next aim point. No sense of using fork to steer at all. but a twist of the wrist effort [on top fighter pilot grunt], so staying rather loose on bar so they just did their own thing w/o me, thank goodness. We'd land on smashed down rear patch spring back that'd hook up front lifting power leap at next am point so nil to no effective front traction but going straight after touch down pop up not needed. I call this Phase Four. The CoG must pivot around my navel level both vertically and horizontally so no sense of sideways force to be flung off, uncanny UFO like, but is felt as all forward acceleration aimed down spine into rear patch so much I must assume drag racer crouch, low deep and close or Peel run out from under, so that's how I learned to stay on the breath taking flings. Forks must full slap like a sail boat boom in a tach.

This is how I hope to tackle flat track like nobody else as hooks up lots better than THE Dry Grit. I got to see pilot on winning Norton essentially doing that twice through the wide sweeper, so only needs done at early entry and late exit apex so mostly a straight upright drag race across most the sweeper. There is just no way to entry turns this hot-hi energy w/o sliding right off the tangent or snatching instants of crash like hook up to launch and release that energy in direction you want it too. Flat trackers and speedway ice racers have no brakes and don't back off turns, so only raw desert racers awe me more.

A slipper in those states freaks me out on lost of rear control even for a blink yikes. Worse states for me to get any cycle in is trail braking loading front tire side while leaned which unloads rear so engine drag can hop skip slip it out of control - so if a cycle benefits by a slipper its not Peel level to pick a fight with. We did as deadly fast as any racers out here so very quickly only dealt with those with messed up knee pucks and nil chicken strips and pow wow ahead of time to keep ego insanity controlled. I want to direct attention where Peel put mine, on the effect of the double 2 plane hinge of stem to axle plane to gravity and rear thrust. This is whats moving in weave or wobble, some angles with rear thrust will tend to fold bike up which forces hinge down to inside ground - some angles with rear thrust will unfold bike opening hinge angle feeling like hand of god holding you up while rear should be snatching a low side. If the frame can flex some the tires can separately follow & hold road better w/o frame over controlling them. Stand next to bike and twist forks to see its opposite leverage on rear tire, then roll forward by pulling frame not forks with a bit of lean say L while counter steer a bit to R, then on same L lean turn forks into the turn and feel the difference. Its the push on frame w/o pushing on forks that reveals the dynamics. Put drag force on that dual plane hinge and effects reverse. Going in/out of this state when cycles are in between falling over on their own or needing a bit of help, snatches forks this way and that dropping and lifting till can flop off the deck or smack down sliding tail first. Good bikes sport steering dampers :> bad ones shun them.

Slipper Clutch
 
You are making the comparison with riding on the dirt with riding on the bitumen. I suggest what you've mentioned happens on bitumen at speeds much higher than most of us will ever experience. On the bitumen I use engine braking extensively, however in the situation where you had a very low first gear to assist in clutch starts, if you engage it in the heat of the moment when balked in a corner, you have a crash. On the deck is on the deck which ever way you want to paint it.
 
I suggest what you've mentioned happens on bitumen at speeds much higher than most of us will ever experience.

Alan I salute your trained skilled intelligence revealed in above quote and exactly why I consider all other cycles but uniquely set up Peel as corner cripples. If ya review almost any world famous pilot road racing to land speeds they all claim their early off pavement skills was only thing that allowed them to control wins on their dangerous corner cripples as tthere's no difference once pavement gets as loose as THE Gravel but its way easier to control crashes on than off road. I'm out to demo any and every gizmo interface between pilot and controls are just crutches Peel can kick out from under them when the going gets tough. Only way Peel on her limited power could do her thing in public was because she didn't have full traction road tires, so let that sink in when I state I've not been able to find Peels limits as the better the traction the faster/more acceleration I could get before leaving the ordinary handling zones behind. You know how much difference tires make so Peel spanking sport elites was done as if still wearing the ankle weight or balloon olympic atheletes train with but remove for competition...

Slipper Clutch

Slipper Clutch
 
Steve, on speedway the balance between slide and drive is all important. It is possible to get good lap times by riding around the pole line as in normal road racing with minimal slide, in fact two of my friends won a few races doing that when they were first on the dirt. Going around with max speed down the straights up and down to the fence and chucking the bike sideways in corners is much fast. What you really don't want is drive when you don't need it. That is when you cop a face full of splinters. My brother's speedway sidecars have trials tyres and no rear end suspension. Moving away from that means a certain crash. Even the gear ratios are very important. Max speeds on a 440 yard circuit are probably only 70 MPH. Even that is too fast to have a crash when you have a fence around you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9rWQppj2oI
 
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