Shims on the kickstart shaft.

Status
Not open for further replies.
pierodn said:
The other two new are two FAG, one is made in Portugal bronze color comes from Andover Norton, the other is bought out is made in Germany and is C3 (what is the difference?).
Click to expand...

What specific parts or part numbers did you order? Did you order that bearing directly from Andover Norton or did it come from one of their parts suppliers? Edit: The bearing at the drive side end of the layshaft should ideally, be a roller bearing (and that's what AN should have sent you as part 067110*) or the 6203 TB bearing that Mick shows in the gearbox DVD. Do not fit the brass cage Portuguese 6203 bearing, this is the bearing that fails prematurely. I don't know how or why AN has sent you that bearing.

*(PM sent to ZFD)

C3 means the bearing has more than the standard amount of internal clearance.


pierodn said:
Where i can buy a shim set?.
Click to expand...

Shimming the gearbox layshaft is an upgrade, it was never done by the factory (as far as I know?) so you need to buy Isolastic shims.
 
pierodn said:
The bearing yet mounted on used lay shaft is Japanese!
The other two new are two FAG, one is made in Portugal bronze color comes from Andover Norton, the other is bought out is made in Germany and is C3 (what is the difference?).
At first glance that seems most consistent old Japanese in the cage.
Which fit?.
Where i can buy a shim set?.
I await suggestions.
Thanks a lot.
Ciao.
Piero
Click to expand...

For normal people like you and me, the bearing you received from Andover Norton will be fine and do not concern yourself with shimming. Many people like to strike fear in common man.

Although it is hard to tell over cyberscace, the bearing you took out may have been just fine and with proper shifting techniques and good clutch action, it would have lasted the rest of your life, but now that it is out you must replace. What is more important is how it fit into the casting. You should have to tap, tap tap it in.

If you decide to go through the shimming process on a "ball" type bearing (of which you have) then these shims are rear isolastic shims 060775 for .005", 060776 for .010", and 060777 for .020".

I personnally prefer to stay away from the "roller" type bearing in this circumstance because I feel a floating layshaft could cause misalignment and stresses other componants. There are also too many variables like gasket thicknesses which can compress over time and when dealing with thousanths of an inch, this could be an issue of binding with the kickshaft.

I have said it before and I will say it again, hard shifting, clutchless shifting and hard down shifting for braking purposes will blow a layshaft bearing. These gearboxes should be handled with care. That is not to say you can't get on it, just use common sense.
 
pvisseriii said:
For normal people like you and me, the bearing you received from Andover Norton will be fine
Click to expand...

I think there are a few normal members here who have experienced the dreaded gearbox lock-up and would disagree!

If Piero ordered the: "LAYSHAFT ROLLER BEARING 18337 Part Number: 067710 Price: £28.80" then that is what he should have been sent, not a £6.00 ball bearing.
 
I was under the impression (mistakenly, again) that the dreaded brass cage Portugese ball bearings were something made back in the swinging sixties and seventies, all long gone by now. With all that has been experienced and written about re dangerous failures and complete transmission lockups, it is quite surprising to see one of these come new in a box from a Norton dealer! Perhaps there is more to the story?
Good thing that Piero questioned things before proceeding.
While you are in the gearbox Piero, have a good look at gear teeth and bushing wear, particularly the first gear (layshaft) bushing, it is very skimpy from new and seems to be prone to wear. My kickstart was doing the dreaded drop on acceleration in first, so I assumed that the original brass cage Portugese layshaft ball bearing was going to be the culprit.
On examination, the bearing had already been changed out for a steel caged US made ball bearing which was in perfect shape. Since I had the RGM gearbox rebuild kit on hand, I replaced the US made ball bearing with a German made roller from the kit.
The bronze first gear bushing was not in good shape, it was almost worn to nothing on one half of it's diameter. The kickstart now stays put, so it appears that the bushing was the cause of tis movement.

Sorry, looking your photos again it appears you have purchased new gears and probably all bushings as well?
Glen
 
L.A.B. said:
pvisseriii said:
For normal people like you and me, the bearing you received from Andover Norton will be fine
Click to expand...

I think there are a few normal members here who have experienced the dreaded gearbox lock-up and would disagree!

If Piero ordered the: "LAYSHAFT ROLLER BEARING 18337 Part Number: 067710 Price: £28.80" then that is what he should have been sent, not a £6.00 ball bearing.
Click to expand...

I know, I know. But these instances were isolated to a weak gaged bearing. Just because you allow the layshaft to float does not make for a solution. I have this opinion and overview of this topic and have pulled a brand new roller layshaft bearing for a good ball bearing to avoid the crap of shimming a the related headache.
Is my opinion Rock Solid? Maybe not, but it makes sense to me and many others. After being in, around, and through my gearbox and know how it works and can understand the lateral forces on the layshaft when stressed by poor practices, I feel confident that I will never experance the lock up on my bike, WITH A BALL BEARING LAYSHAFT BEARING.

My opinion is subject to change but it will take more than horror stories. Fear is a poor motivator and there is often more than that one solution to a problem.

And as far as what was ordered and what was recieved, well, that is a different matter.
Pierodn, please offer up your original invoice for scrutiny other than copying and pasteing something from a web site.
 
worntorn said:
I was under the impression (mistakenly, again) that the dreaded brass cage Portugese ball bearings were something made back in the swinging sixties and seventies, all long gone by now. With all that has been experienced and written about re dangerous failures and complete transmission lockups, it is quite surprising to see one of these come new in a box from a Norton dealer! Perhaps there is more to the story?
Click to expand...


Maybe it has something to do with AN's recent change of premises? Perhaps some old stock Portuguese layshaft bearings got mixed-in with the current parts stock during the move, however, ZFD has been notified and hopefully he can shed some light on this?
 
Piero, do NOT use that Portugese bearing, no matter what anyone will tell you.
These bearings are dangerous and have caused serious accidents inthe past.
 
I pulled a Japan XU NTN 6203 layshaft bearing out in order to make the change to the roller type.
The Japan 6203 (7 ball steel caged) was still in fine shape.

I found a Made in USA ND 3203 (8 ball steel caged) mixed in with some old spare parts. It has the same dimensions as the 6203.
Any idea what the 3203 is used for?
 
Could i use the silver fag made in germany or is better i buy a roller bearing.
 
Bob Z. said:
I found a Made in USA ND 3203 (8 ball steel caged) mixed in with some old spare parts. It has the same dimensions as the 6203.
Any idea what the 3203 is used for?
Click to expand...

6203 is: 17 x 40 x 12mm
3203 should be: 17 x 40 x 17.5mm and a double row ball bearing?

The 3203 can be used as a replacement for the original double row 17 x 40 x 16mm wheel/sprocket bearings however the hub/sprocket has to be machined in order to fit this wider bearing.
 
I, for once, agree with pissy. While I put a roller in my gearbox and shimmed, I'd just as soon put in a good ball bearing.
 
Dear All,

after reading well the copy of the Andover Norton invoice, now it seems clear that what i ordered was the ball bearing n. 040100 that was the original layshaft bearing.

Andover wrote me in his invoice "040100 WHEEL BEARING, (USE 067110 FOR LAYSHAFT)" so it seems i did in fact order the wrong bearing and was not Andover in wrong.

I apologize with Andover for my innocent mistake! I misunderstood (USE 67110 ..........) that i thought to have received (but i payed less only for the 040100 ).

However, as you can read in my previous topic I have never said that I have paid the bearing more, and I ever did intend to have paid an high amount for a less item value received.

Anyway thanks your advice i will not use this bearing.

Sorry.

Ciao.

Piero
 
pierodn said:
However, as you can read in my previous topic I have never said that I have paid the bearing more, and I ever did intend to have paid an high amount for a less item value received.
Click to expand...


OK Piero but you did say previously:

Ok Sirs,
But i cannot understand!!!!!!
i bought the bronze color Fag from Andover and on the web list is written "NORTON 750 - 1972

Item: LAYSHAFT ROLLER BEARING 18337
Part Number: 067710
Price: £28.80"

My doubts had a right!!!
Click to expand...

Which does give the impression that you had ordered the 067710 roller bearing @£28.80.

However, the misunderstanding has been cleared up so all is well.
 
I was in wrong.
I apologize again, but i never said i payed 28,8 P , only said the items i thought to have order costs 28,8 like web side, never said i received a less value item payed more.
Regards.
Piero
 
I was concerned when I heard Piero got the wrong bearing from us at the roller bearing price, but that has fortunately not been the case. I admit there are different schools of thought in the Norton world about whether to use the ball bearing 04-0100 or the roller bearing 06-7710 for the layshaft. I admit I have used the roller bearing in all my Commandos since 1977, when the ball bearing collapsed in the gearbox of my 850Mk3 (bought new that year) and I had to get the bike on a train to get home.
That said, it seems like the ball bearing is o.k. in a normal 750, and certainly in the smaller Dommis and Singles. Furthermore that number doubles as a normal wheel bearing, which is why we say

"04-0100 WHEEL BEARING (USE 067710 FOR LAYSHAFT)".

If/when the customer then orders the bearing and puts it into his gearbox he knows we do not recommend it for that purpose.

Andover Norton's move has been completed by now and the first two big shipments of parts I received for my shop in Germany, Norton Motors GmbH, from Andover Norton after the move were 100% correct. We have very good pickers/packers currently, who work diligently even with big orders like mine often having several hundred lines.

All our bearings come from FAG, so are quality bearings from reputable manufacturers (the Timken bearings for the clutch did also come through Schaeffler/UK, FAG's English outlet). We insist on not using non-brand (Chinese?) bearings, hence our bearing prices are often on the high side compared to other offerings in the market.
Joe/Andover Norton
 
The last gearbox I put together I had to shim along with installing a plastic caged roller on the drive side of the gearbox.

One thing that made a big difference in the clearance was taking all the studs out of the gearbox case that fasten the inner cover and then removing all burs from the mating faces of the case and inner cover and checking them on a surface plate to make sure they were perfectly flat. A little resurfacing can be done on a surface plate with fine emery after getting all the burs off from around the stud holes etc.. Get some deburring tools and some high quality flat files and make everything pretty and perfect.

This exercise immediately decreased the end play by quite a bit, also it made the joint between the case and inner cover nice enough to where I assembled them together with a small amount of sealer only and no gasket, which further tightened things up. So I ended up needing one shim only, which I made from some stainless steel sheet using radio-chassis punches.

I believe proper setting of the lay-shaft end-play is important to get the best reliability and shift quality out of the gearboxes. In this day and age when one has their Norton gearbox apart there is no reason to install anything on the drive side of the lay-shaft except a roller.

It is not scare tactics, but a fact that it is risking death installing a cheap ball bearing in that position.
 
ZFD said:
"04-0100 WHEEL BEARING (USE 067710 FOR LAYSHAFT)".

If/when the customer then orders the bearing and puts it into his gearbox he knows we do not recommend it for that purpose.
Click to expand...

Not wishing to put words into Piero's mouth, but due to his slight lack of understanding of the English language, Piero thought what he had been sent by AN was the correct bearing for the layshaft.

Therefore perhaps the note to: "use 06.7710 for Layshaft" (which is not typed in capitals on Piero's invoice) needs to be changed to make it abundantly clear that the 040100 bearing is not recommended for use in a Commando gearbox.
 
The Andover Norton is really straightforward to use . when you click on the gearbox image and then the shaft bearing , what is displayed is 067710 layshaft roller bearing. No way you can order the ball bearing on the website.
 
I still apologize for the "bona fide" error made by me.
I explain why I have been misled:  I took the number of object n. 040100 from the Norton Part List Group 7 Plate N. 10 and not from Andover web list.
In fact, if you look at the manual, the lay shaft bearing is only n. 040100 there is no reference to another bearing number.
When I read on Andover invoice " (USE 067110 FOR LAYSHAFT) " I mean Andover had changed and ship to me an other bearing because the object n. 040100 was not more available.
I'm always very careful to buy the best parts, and not convinced by bronze bearing I asked to blog a tip, which I received.
I share the opinion to modify the terminology also used (USE .......) because i think not all Commandos fans are experienced mechanics/technicians, I have a lot of good will, but I am a lawyer and I'm not surprised even when i wrong a code, just imagine a bike's replacement!
But still I should like to clarify again that I never said and not hinted that i had paid the bearing (bronze ball bearing) as the Roller Bearing n.067110.
Finally, and without controversy, I have apologized many times, but luckily some doubts I came though originated from a my mistake!
Thanks.
Ciao.
Piero
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top