Opinions on disc brake pads?

I've been using Ferodo platinum front disc pads & they seem ok but a friend insists the EBC fa27 pads are much better. I'd like to hear from those who have used both and what they think. Thanks

Hi Glen, I'm using them in the front too, have also tried AP in the front, not much different. I have some SBS 505's and will try them in the front of this new MK3 but I won't have that going for a few months. I'll be interested in any comments on this topic. What are your disc's like?

I too researched availability for better friction coefficient of front pads, found scant little useful info. I've upgraded my modern fleet to EBC sintered "FF" performance level, my 860 lb cruiser showing the most improvement. The iron rotor vs SST on moderns appears to be a difference in pad material application.
I'm running the Ferodo Plat as well, failing availability of any real data.

Are yoose guys having trouble to squeal or lock front tires as reason for better pad search? How do ya determine the pads are not doing their job? Confuses me as able to on just hot nailed factory brake and EMGO lost cost pads. I've come across shops that recover brakes with special material so may check into that for the aggressive surface finish of wave rotors said to chew up softer pads fast. Sems would be pretty easy on our flat pad metal bases.

Be careful with sintered metal pads on the front of a Norton. They are powerful but they also transfer a lot of heat to the piston and fluid -then the brakes can go away.

The best thing I ever done to my Norton was to get rid of the orginal brakes on my Norton, the older they get the more dangours they become, don't matter what pads you put in and how many times you rebuild them, one day they will let you down when you need them badly, my life is more important than keeping my Norton orginal, Ive done all the upgrades to the Commando front disc and one day they nealy killed me, spend the money and upgrade to moden brakes that work the way they should, stopping.

Ashley

Metal sintereed is what's supposed to be used on Peel rotors, ain't found any, so who would I order from?
Some materials must be pretty hot to develop its predicable grip. To break in pads requires heating them more than ever expected to in times of need. Nil warning one long squeaze to next instant nothing on heating threshold.

hobot said:

Metal sintereed is what's supposed to be used on Peel rotors, ain't found any, so who would I order from?
Some materials must be pretty hot to develop its predicable grip. To break in pads requires heating them more than ever expected to in times of need. Nil warning one long squeaze to next instant nothing on heating threshold.

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I have one pair left. Vesrah # TSK 99966
Probably long out of production. Jim

Well guess I'll have to just try a set of the EBCs & see if I notice any differance. Kind of don't think it will be much of a change. I am running a Brembo MC which is easier to fit with clippons & much better than stock but not a huge improvement over my orig sleeved one.

comnoz said:

Be careful with sintered metal pads on the front of a Norton. They are powerful but they also transfer a lot of heat to the piston and fluid -then the brakes can go away.

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Good advice. Aside from the obvious of having fresh (less than 1 year-old fluid) good quality high dry boiling-point brake fluid, one additional thing that can be done, if needed, to help keep heat away from the piston/system is to use titanium brake-pad shims (between brake pad and caliper piston). They do work.

Titanium Thermal Barrier Plates. Titanium has only 40% or less of the thermal conductivity of the steel material used for brake backing plates. Placing these thin 6AL-4V titanium plates between the brake pad and caliper piston will reduce heat transfer approximately 70 degrees, giving your braking system more heat capacity and longer rebuild intervals. This is not Grade 2 Ti of other brands that can be purchased for 1/3 of the price - this is the good stuff. A must for track use - especially in heavier full-interior street cars and stock and prepared class racers.

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I stated high "dry" boiling point fluid above, because I've never bought into the conventional wisdom of being really concerned about wet boiling point ratings. If you are like me and:
1) changing your fluid every 12 months or sooner
2) keeping your bike indoors most nights
3) riding only infrequently in the rain
Than wet boiling points for brake fluid really don't come into play and dry boiling points are what will matter. That presupposes that you are doing things properly and using only fresh brake fluid (unopened container), etc.

ashman said:

The best thing I ever done to my Norton was to get rid of the orginal brakes on my Norton, the older they get the more dangours they become, don't matter what pads you put in and how many times you rebuild them, one day they will let you down when you need them badly, my life is more important than keeping my Norton orginal, Ive done all the upgrades to the Commando front disc and one day they nealy killed me, spend the money and upgrade to moden brakes that work the way they should, stopping.
Ashley

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Ashley, I'm not sure what your actual experience has been, but from mine I don't really see much difference between a "modern" brake caliper and a 40 year old Norton caliper, if comparing single or dual piston old systems to new equivalent ones. If we're comparing the old systems to a four-piston Brembo, etc., than sure, but that's apples to oranges. There is a world of difference between the braking power and feel of my 2004 BMW R1150RT and my 1975 BMW R90S, but the vast majority of that difference is in the master cylinders of the two and their bore, stroke, etc. I think virtually all if not all 40 year old bikes had far larger master cylinder bores than what is run today. You must remember that 40-50 years ago it was common-place to ride your bikes on gravel, dirt, and even grass. I certainly did, just like everyone else.

Cycle Magazine 1973 test - The brakes on the Commando were excellent and very much in keeping with the overall performance of the machine. The
Lockeed-Norton front disc was smooth and required little effort to bring the machine to a safe stable halt. The input is
predictable and there is little danger in locking up the front wheel.

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TImes have changed and so have our expectations. Tha means addressing the master cylinder issue.

Cycle magazine also did a 7 bike "Superbike" shootout in 1973 and the Norton brakes out-performed all others except the Kaw 900 and 750. Pulling better Gs (just 0.006 Gs out of 1st) and stopping in a shorter distance for comparable speeds than the Honda CB750, Ducati 750, Triumph Trident, and H-D 1000. Add to that that the testers stated that the Norton's Avon tires were the limiting factor and that the Kaws had what the testers referred to as great Dunlop F6 tires that outperformed the Avons and you'll see that The brakes were actually very good for their time. I never had any trouble with CB750s, Kaw 750s, etc., in the 70's with Dunlop TT100s on my 850. The brakes were great for the available rubber of the day. Modern rubber means that bikes can use more braking force now than they ever could before.

If both new and old can lock the wheel, than it becomes a matter of feel and effort as well as fade resistance, but these are functions of the master cylinder and brake pads not of the calipers. Brake calipers are extremely simple pieces but do require proper maintenance and periodic proper rebuilds. This is true of OE Norton calipers and all new ones, both will be junk if this isn't done and both will work great if it is. Both have to be maintained and will easily lock the wheel with two-fingers IF using an appropriately sized master cylinder. That is where, I believe, the OE Norton has a real issue, the master cylinder. It is my understanding that Norton deliberately used a larger than optimal bore size to actually reduce the effectiveness of the front brake as discs were new and they were concerned about them being too strong. I know that's a laugh now, even my 1975 R90S has scary weak front brakes with dual rotors, but that is about 90% a master cylinder issue, as I think it is with the Norton.

I'll be fitting a 13mm master cylinder and Ferodo Platinum pads to my Norton during the rebuild this winter and will then have current feedback then versus my recollections from my original 850 that I parted with in 1976.

The Ti insulators is very insightful for Peel as her rotor is like half the width of factory so didn't know what to use or why as spacers. With as much power as a hot nailed factory brake provides I'll take more tire patch over more brake power any day. Still upset on fitting my 1st ever 100 size front, which makes me wonder how brake upgrades really used. Braking lock up slip outs on slowish short panics on tarmac or easing down on THE Gravel account for about half my crashes. Mostly don't brake hard as wears tires and pads so got over 25k out of my modern cycle factory pads. Ever try 100 to O contests with your self?

Well the Titainium pad shims sound like a good idea, any idea where I could buy a set???

Probably long out of production. Jim

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For a number of years and a goodly mileage I was using NOS Brembo pads. They were great until one slid off the backing pad last year. I got a fair bit of criticism for using old stock, probably rightly so but have never seen pads delaminate like that. It was put down to corrosion lifting the material. The Ferodo platinums that are in there now don't quite come up to the Brembos on initial bite but they work ok with 13mm master.

Hardly ever need much brake but when its immediately terrifying, so...
Is there any reason not to drill a hole or 3 in our size pads?
Is there any reason we have what ever material we want put on?
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=reline+brake+pads

gtsun said:

Well the Titainium pad shims sound like a good idea, any idea where I could buy a set???

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They aren't cheap and really only needed for racing situations, but I don't know of anything available specifically for motorcycles, let alone for the Norton Lockheed caliper, so whatever you find would likely have to be trimmed to shape.

For cars there are several sources, here's one reasonably priced source (a former racing sponsor of mine - the owner, James Clay, runs the company as much to support his racing as anything else):
http://store.bimmerworld.com/titanium-thermal-barrier-plates-p713.aspx

Likely be able to do 1-2 bikes with one order.

I use two Lockheed AP calipers held to Ceriani forks with aluminium plates. Two relatively small high speed steel Suzuki discs with the old style asbestos pads. The master cylinder is the one intended for use with only one caliper however with two hydraulic lines coming off it, The brakes are extremely effective (only ever one finger). Way back I used one caliper with asbestos pads and a chrome plated Suzuki GS1000 disc, and the bike would not stop. I tried the two calipers with carbon fibre pads with the smaller Suzuki discs and the setup was useless. Both pad and disc materials affect the friction. Some people use cast iron discs to get greater friction - I would never do that. I lost a friend when the discs exploded off the front of his bike during a race.

Alan Coles - great post. Thanks for pulling those quotes out of the past and present.

I too change brake fluid annually and I have never had a problem with overheating the caliper. My problem has been with heat in the disc. I have cracked them and warped them. I suspect the problem is the width of our Nortons' pads' contact patch; all later designs evolved toward larger diameters to allow narrower and narrower pad contact patch arcs while retaining total swept area. All of this, to minimize the temperature delta between the inside and outside of the pads' path on the disc, thereby minimizing internal stresses that otherwise tend to crack or warp the disc.

My compromise between stock and performance is a 13" diameter disc, a size once made by Al Miles.

So, yes, our bikes' design is flawed by the era of its engineering, but still quite capable.

Took a while to remember where it was but here's a review of pads done several years ago.
http://www.nortonclub.com/docs/Tech_Brakepads_0206.pdf

Dang it exbackslider I'm impressed by your heating Lockheed rotor to point of cracking. This is why modern brake have such narrow friction bands and a row of small caliper pads because the difference in speed between the inner area vs outer part of rotor pad contact causes thermal gradient that distort rotor so narrower bamd lessen the speed friction differences. Could order a small sheet of Ti and have water jetted disc sliced out. Oils generally don't vaporize till 400's F but a micro layer of air bubbles sure can. Dual brakes spread heat loads to two rotors/clapier as their main anti fade advantage.

Im running the stock caliper, stock rotor , stainless hose and a shindy mastercylinder with 1/2 inch piston. I run the EBC pad and could be happier....two finger stopping.

I commute nearly everyday on my commando and I ride in the hilly San francisco area, never feel unsafe. even when I have to lane share all the way to work