Brake Pads (again)

Hi all,
Apologies for revisiting a subject that has obviously been covered many times previously but I’m still looking for a definitive answer (if one exists). I have read various articles etc but I will still put it up to the forum.
I am looking for the most powerful pad in an emergency and the lightest lever pressure.
I have alread reduced the master cylinder size down to 13mm.
The bike is a 74 Mk2.
The bike is purely for road use.
I use it for fast country riding but I am not heavy on my brakes in normal riding. Therefore, in an emergency they will probably be cold.
It is unlikely I will suffer from excessive brake heat
Rotor wear is not a consideration.
Cost is not a major consideration.
The front runners appear to be Feroda Platinum or EBC
Any thoughts?
I see ‘racing‘ brake levers for sale. Do they provide better mechanical advantage? Do they reduce the reach required to grab the brakes in an emergency ?
As I have mentioned in previous posts wildlife on our roads present a significant risk at dusk. Traditionally it was kangaroos and wombats but increasingly deer and feral pigs, not to mention livestock that has strayed onto the road present a significant threat . It really can be thrill a minute waiting for hazards to emerge into my rather anaemic headlight beam (it is Quartz Halogenbut nevertheless you don’t get much warning).
Any advice greatly appreciate.
Alan

i put EBCs on and like them a lot but that's just me

I looked back at this subject recently as I will be next updating the brakes on my '72 Commando and soon-new-to-me '73 Trident. Basically same initial point of attack on both. Smaller diameter MC, EBC rotor and pads. I do want to do the stainless caliper piston rebuild and updated brake lines at the same time.

I do have a Brembo controls kit and adapters from CNW - but will likely put that on the 850 Commando project bike. I am wanting more of a vintage vibe on the 72 Commando and 73 Trident. But if you are going full-on then a more modern setup will perform better than the old stuff. To me it's an either-or decision - the in-between solutions are just time wasters IMHO. (In my situation, I felt like I should have just spent the big bucks and got the complete upgrade).

Complaints about sponginess are due to air in lines. SwooshDave has a video I believe on bleeding brakes to watch on YouTube (if I recall that correctly).

On your headlight, I can't recommend enough the LEDs - though I sure wish the headlight wasn't so white and was more yellow. I plan to 'blend in' some off-white secondary lights to make it more natural-looking. Maybe get yourself some small yellow led driving lights down lower so they are not noticeable but give you a wider field of view. I don't have a solution for that so just a thought.

The friction material on the disc pads must suit the disc material and the conditions under which you intend to use the bike. I fitted carbon racing pads with steel discs on my Seeley and had virtually no brakes. I probably could not get them hot enough. If you have a chromed disc,. probably there is no type of pad which will work really well. I now use the very old type of asbestos pad. My mater cylinder operates two calipers, it was designed operate one.

Whatever you select, go out and do some emerg braking drills in an empty parking lot. I did it recently on my Norton and was mildly surprised at how well stock setup, sleeved MC and Fedoro Platinums worked. Rears are emgo shoes and these were quite difficult to lock up. That may be a good thing though.

Hi Tornado,
The problem with the wildlife around here is that they believe the best way to deal with an oncoming headlight is to stare at it.
yes, I’ve tried the practice emergency braking. You are correct, if I can get all my fingers around the lever so I can really put the pressure on it will give quite an impressive stop. I guess the same applies to any brakes, if you jump on them hard enough they will stop.
My problem is that in an emergency I’m only really getting three fingers on the lever (little finger with mild dupuytrens contracture makes it difficult without removing my hand from twist grip (a precious fraction of a second lost).
Also my fingers aren’t as far out along the lever to get the best mechanical advantage. Taking a second grab certainly gets it stopping but again, precious time wasted
Hence my interest in maximising what I’ve got, I don’t really want to put different brakes on the bike.
So it’s a case of the pads with the best coefficient of friction from cold and perhaps a better designed lever with more mechanical advantage, if anyone can suggest one.
Out of interest, with the reduced master cylinder and standard brake line I’m not getting excessive sponginess in the lever.
with thanks for people’s patience in me banging on with this hackneyed topic
Al

Tornado said:

Whatever you select, go out and do some emerg braking drills in an empty parking lot. I did it recently on my Norton and was mildly surprised at how well stock setup, sleeved MC and Fedoro Platinums worked. Rears are emgo shoes and these were quite difficult to lock up. That may be a good thing though.

Click to expand...

That's the EXACT setup I currently am running. Emgo's (rear shoes) work great!

Have you had the chrome machined off the disc? I found it was a minor improvement but ultimately a 12" disc and an AP clone caliper gave me an all around good brake.

JimNH said:

Have you had the chrome machined off the disc? I found it was a minor improvement but ultimately a 12" disc and an AP clone caliper gave me an all around good brake.

Click to expand...

That's what I have. Works very well.

Alan L said:

Also my fingers aren’t as far out along the lever to get the best mechanical advantage. Taking a second grab certainly gets it stopping but again, precious time wasted
Hence my interest in maximising what I’ve got, I don’t really want to put different brakes on the bike.

Click to expand...

Al, I have "the most agressive case of Dupetruyn's" that my hand surgeon has ever seen. His quote.

On my right hand this means I could never cover the stock lever very well with my middl3 finger. My left little finger has ~65 degree bend wide open.

The game changer for me was going to Brembo MC on both the front brake and a CNW hydraulic clutch. I went to shorty levers with adjustable cams, so I could tune the reach on both.

I did this because I had them on my Ducati and knew it worked for me. The CNW Brembos use levers compatible with the 996, so plentiful.

I can effetively one finger brake on my CNW front brake if I need to.

But, I always use at least two. ;-)

Alan L said:

Hi Tornado,
The problem with the wildlife around here is that they believe the best way to deal with an oncoming headlight is to stare at it.
yes, I’ve tried the practice emergency braking. You are correct, if I can get all my fingers around the lever so I can really put the pressure on it will give quite an impressive stop. I guess the same applies to any brakes, if you jump on them hard enough they will stop.
My problem is that in an emergency I’m only really getting three fingers on the lever (little finger with mild dupuytrens contracture makes it difficult without removing my hand from twist grip (a precious fraction of a second lost).

Al

Click to expand...

You, in some ways, have the same problem as riding in the rush hour when all the intelligence plebs leave their offices for their long trek home- althought it has not been as bad since the lockdown.
You should practice manipulating the throttle whilst having as many fingers as you can manage covering the front brake lever - it cuts down the reaction time.
Or you should obtain as I call them louder " "Egyptian pedestrian awakeker"! (HORN!)

Guy asks for pad choice, and gets personal preferences for brake upgrades. I know, we can't help ourselves

I like EBC pads generally, but would avoid sintered or go with the Ferodo Platinum on a cast disc surface for road use.

That is my biggest beef with the original caliper - lack of availability of high friction linings, which is why I adapted a CBR600F4 caliper to my fork leg. I run EBC HH code linings in it. The stock cast iron Norton rotor is a great match to these linings, and with a 1/2" bore master cylinder, a 1-2 finger pull will haul you down from speed with controllable authority. It is a very inexpensive set up, and requires no permanent modification, so it easily returned to stock if preferred.

The piston area of the 4-pot Nissin is about the same as the stock Norton Lockheed, but it does move the piston centerline out about 1/4-3/8" for a marginal moment arm increase. There is also enough room in the caliper to accept the stock rotor and unworn pads without any machining.

The HH friction code linings are the key to this working. If some were available for the stock caliper, the transformation would be incredible.

FWIW

SteveA said:

Guy asks for pad choice, and gets personal preferences for brake upgrades. I know, we can't help ourselves

I like EBC pads generally, but would avoid sintered or go with the Ferodo Platinum on a cast disc surface for road use.

Click to expand...

"My problem is that in an emergency I’m only really getting three fingers on the lever (little finger with mild dupuytrens contracture makes it difficult without removing my hand from twist grip (a precious fraction of a second lost).
Also my fingers aren’t as far out along the lever to get the best mechanical advantage. Taking a second grab certainly gets it stopping but again, precious time wasted."

If you cant cover the brake lever with your fingers safely, quickly and with enough purchase because they are permanently disfigured with Dupetruyn's, pad choice is irrelevant. Trust me, I know.

4 pot calipers will give you a FREE servo effect. . . . .

gortnipper said:

"My problem is that in an emergency I’m only really getting three fingers on the lever (little finger with mild dupuytrens contracture makes it difficult without removing my hand from twist grip (a precious fraction of a second lost).
Also my fingers aren’t as far out along the lever to get the best mechanical advantage. Taking a second grab certainly gets it stopping but again, precious time wasted."

If you cant cover the brake lever with your fingers safely, quickly and with enough purchase because they are permanently disfigured with Dupetruyn's, pad choice is irrelevant. Trust me, I know.

Click to expand...

I have mild Dupetruyn's on my right hand, nowhere near as debilitating as yours, I also have small hands. Reach is an issue. The only solution I have is positioning the master on the bar to best suit you. Not much I know, but reducing bore size increases travel, too much travel and you have another problem, mechanical fouling limiting travel!!

I run a race bike with a 13mm Brembo master and an AP race caliper. Without going down to at least a 14mm master I could not stop it as I want in race situations (these are mostly more pedictable than unexpected road events. The limit with the 13mm is grip! A better brake on road tyres is likely to exceed grip very soon, which ends up with you not stopping!

Clearly the Norton caliper is not as good potentially as the AP (Pad size), but with the 13mm master and a decent pad (EBC or Ferodo Platinum) It will stop safely. On a standard master everyone will say it isn't safe, and I won't argue.

But in my view the OP has done all the modification he 'needs'. Changing calipers is something he will do if he wants.

Riding at night with bush animals surely has risk associated even on the lightest of sports bikes with dual 320mm floating discs, the only way to reduce risk is to see the road better. I would think he needs a better headlamp and maybe even auxilliaries before he needs a better brake!!

The CNW Brembo MC, Ferodo Platinum pads and SS brake lines will result in the Commando brake system feeling just like a modern system as far as feel/braking ability. The front tire will be the determining factor on braking power, not the brake system. If you are using/intend to use the OEM Lucas switchgear, CNW has a bracket to allow use of the OEM switchgear with the Brembo.

Yes if you are trying to improve from a limited finger motion issue, then I agree, better pads are not the best path forward.
Take a look at the Madass140 brake upgrade kits here:


this will give you much easier hand loading on lever.

Derek Wilson said:

That is my biggest beef with the original caliper - lack of availability of high friction linings, which is why I adapted a CBR600F4 caliper to my fork leg. I run EBC HH code linings in it. The stock cast iron Norton rotor is a great match to these linings, and with a 1/2" bore master cylinder, a 1-2 finger pull will haul you down from speed with controllable authority. It is a very inexpensive set up, and requires no permanent modification, so it easily returned to stock if preferred.

The piston area of the 4-pot Nissin is about the same as the stock Norton Lockheed, but it does move the piston centerline out about 1/4-3/8" for a marginal moment arm increase. There is also enough room in the caliper to accept the stock rotor and unworn pads without any machining.

The HH friction code linings are the key to this working. If some were available for the stock caliper, the transformation would be incredible.

FWIW

Click to expand...

I'm sure that is there was enough interest from owners EBC would make some HH pads. They would probably want a minimum order of quite a few though.

I was not necessarily advocating a caliper change for the OP, more a MC change to address the ongoing and progressive Dupuytren's.

FWIW, you can get EBC HH and EPFA pads for the Brembo calipers. I have the EPFA pads on my Duc and they are great.