lithium battery
- Thread starter tjfisher
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A really good read is necessary.http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934
What is your max voltage on the alternator/regulator?
The alternator that you have, is it able to produce 15+ volts before going to waste? I.e. turn to heat?
1. How much are you willing to spend to loose just 5 pounds? You can loose it by not having that jelly donut. :mrgreen:
2. Do you need it, or just want it because it’s new? Weight vs. cost.... to do what is needed? Racing a bike is ok… Weight is the rule here. Ask Kenny Cummings.
Are you racing your street bike to loose 5 pounds for a lithium battery?
These are the critical thinking points that need to be addressed.
Thinking out loud.
CNN
What is your max voltage on the alternator/regulator?
The alternator that you have, is it able to produce 15+ volts before going to waste? I.e. turn to heat?
1. How much are you willing to spend to loose just 5 pounds? You can loose it by not having that jelly donut. :mrgreen:
2. Do you need it, or just want it because it’s new? Weight vs. cost.... to do what is needed? Racing a bike is ok… Weight is the rule here. Ask Kenny Cummings.
Are you racing your street bike to loose 5 pounds for a lithium battery?
These are the critical thinking points that need to be addressed.
Thinking out loud.
CNN
The weight loss with lithium is actually a lot less than it might first appear. The actual storage capacity of a lithium battery is one third the indicated number, so an 18 lfx Shorai holds 6 amphours of charge.
A six amphour lead acid type battery will run your non estart Commando just as well as the lfx 18 shorai, so the weight saving there between the lithium and the conventional is a couple of pounds.
Glen
A six amphour lead acid type battery will run your non estart Commando just as well as the lfx 18 shorai, so the weight saving there between the lithium and the conventional is a couple of pounds.
Glen
Fast Eddie
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I'm runnning the AH18, 3 phase alternator and RGM regulator set up. All is well so far (the combined effects of small battery and solid state regulator unit allowed for a very nice and neat wirring set up too).
I did run an AH14 on a bike a few years ago with a an old stock (120w ?) alternator, and that battery died. My assumption being that it didn't have the required output to keep it properly charged.
I did run an AH14 on a bike a few years ago with a an old stock (120w ?) alternator, and that battery died. My assumption being that it didn't have the required output to keep it properly charged.
The other thing to look at is the effect of a small battery on the charging system.
First, you have to throw out the Li battery manufacturer's crazily optimistic AH designation and look at what the charging system really sees.
With the Ah18 Li battery, the charging system sees a 6 amphour battery, less if the charging system cuts out at under 14.5 volts. A battery this small in capacity will work if all is well, but I believe it is not ideal for the health of the charging system. If instead of choosing the Li battery, you went with a conventional, would you opt for a 6 ah size? Most of us do not.
Aside from the fact that you are living on the edge electrically with a small battery, ie leave lights on for a few minutes and no spark, the small storage causes the regulator to work overtime.
I used a really small li battery in one bike. It has a tiny battery box that will only hold a 7 ah conventional. The Li battery supplier suggested their 9 ah battery as replacement, as it would "be smaller and more powerful than the 7 ah lead acid" At that time, I did not know about the grossly pumped up rating system for Li batteries. In reality, this 9 ah battery was capable of storing 3 ah in ideal conditions, that being a charging system capable of delivering at least 14.5 volts before cutout.
The Alton with solid state PODtronics does not do this. It cuts out around 13.5 volts, plenty for a lead acid but only a half charge for Li.
So I really only had a 1.5 amphour battery on board, a far cry from my 7 ah lead acid, already on the small side but worked fine for years, even with the original charging system.
Having recently installed a Brightspark battery monitor (thanks Eddy), I could see the voltage reg cycling from battery charging to dumping power every couple of seconds, all the way to California, about 1200 miles from home.
Somewhere in northern Ca.the PODtronics, known to be a very reliable unit, had enough of this incessant switching and fried itself. The battery monitor let me know that something was wrong, but we were in traffic and just five miles from our destination, so I carried on. This was not good for the Alton, it fried as well.
I finished the trip and return journey running dead loss. I purchased a big lawn tractor battery at Napa and packed it the top case wired in, then charged it at night in the various Motel rooms.
So although I have no crystal clear proof, I do not think tiny battery storage capacity is a healthy thing for a charging system. With most Li battery installs, that is what you have. It certainly did not work out well for me!
Those who have installed two 18ah, true 6ah batteries probably have it about right. But there goes your space saving and some of your weight saving, not to mention your savings!
Glen
First, you have to throw out the Li battery manufacturer's crazily optimistic AH designation and look at what the charging system really sees.
With the Ah18 Li battery, the charging system sees a 6 amphour battery, less if the charging system cuts out at under 14.5 volts. A battery this small in capacity will work if all is well, but I believe it is not ideal for the health of the charging system. If instead of choosing the Li battery, you went with a conventional, would you opt for a 6 ah size? Most of us do not.
Aside from the fact that you are living on the edge electrically with a small battery, ie leave lights on for a few minutes and no spark, the small storage causes the regulator to work overtime.
I used a really small li battery in one bike. It has a tiny battery box that will only hold a 7 ah conventional. The Li battery supplier suggested their 9 ah battery as replacement, as it would "be smaller and more powerful than the 7 ah lead acid" At that time, I did not know about the grossly pumped up rating system for Li batteries. In reality, this 9 ah battery was capable of storing 3 ah in ideal conditions, that being a charging system capable of delivering at least 14.5 volts before cutout.
The Alton with solid state PODtronics does not do this. It cuts out around 13.5 volts, plenty for a lead acid but only a half charge for Li.
So I really only had a 1.5 amphour battery on board, a far cry from my 7 ah lead acid, already on the small side but worked fine for years, even with the original charging system.
Having recently installed a Brightspark battery monitor (thanks Eddy), I could see the voltage reg cycling from battery charging to dumping power every couple of seconds, all the way to California, about 1200 miles from home.
Somewhere in northern Ca.the PODtronics, known to be a very reliable unit, had enough of this incessant switching and fried itself. The battery monitor let me know that something was wrong, but we were in traffic and just five miles from our destination, so I carried on. This was not good for the Alton, it fried as well.
I finished the trip and return journey running dead loss. I purchased a big lawn tractor battery at Napa and packed it the top case wired in, then charged it at night in the various Motel rooms.
So although I have no crystal clear proof, I do not think tiny battery storage capacity is a healthy thing for a charging system. With most Li battery installs, that is what you have. It certainly did not work out well for me!
Those who have installed two 18ah, true 6ah batteries probably have it about right. But there goes your space saving and some of your weight saving, not to mention your savings!
Glen
Just lights and ignition? That's everything! Whether you go with a Lithium battery or not, you should think about upgrading you charging system to a 200 watt configuration at least. If you want to spend even more, then 3 phase is also good.tjfisher said:
The Li batteries are a couple hundred ea. , and that only gets you 6 ah actual storage. Pete is suggesting you might as well save some money and install a good fifty dollar 10 -12 ah AGM battery instead, if you are not upgrading the charging system.
After wasting money on Li batteries I went the opposite extreme and bought the cheapest AGM I could find, twelve bucks from Battery Sharks. In another month it will have equalled my 200 dollar Ballistic for longevity.
As explained by an earlier poster, you must have a charging system that works in a higher voltage range than the stock one does or there is no point in spending $200 on a LI battery. It won't work in the 12 -13 volt range, it needs a charging system that gives 13 volts at idle and shuts down around 14.5 or a little higher.
Glen
After wasting money on Li batteries I went the opposite extreme and bought the cheapest AGM I could find, twelve bucks from Battery Sharks. In another month it will have equalled my 200 dollar Ballistic for longevity.
As explained by an earlier poster, you must have a charging system that works in a higher voltage range than the stock one does or there is no point in spending $200 on a LI battery. It won't work in the 12 -13 volt range, it needs a charging system that gives 13 volts at idle and shuts down around 14.5 or a little higher.
Glen
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This year there has been a couple of AGM failures that frustrated owners to find and a friend in upper NY trying them twice before understanding the AGM in Commando issues then last season 2 more fellas on BI list with same early AGM failures so let us know how yours works out. Gell cell is known to last in our Cdo's in any position ya like.
lcrken
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I have been using a Shorai LFX21 battery in my street MK III with good results for the last year or so, and also used it on my featherbed/Commando at Bonneville two weeks ago. I used it on the featherbed because I needed enough capacity for the nitrous solenoids and fuel pump, as well as the O2 sensor and data logger, and because it was so light. It worked fine for that purpose. The issue of amp-hour ratings between Li-Fe batteries and AGM isn't quite as straightforward as it might seem. If you're really interested, I suggest you read that section of Shorai's web site, and then do some internet searches for other opinions. I decided to try it for my MK III because of the high starting current capability (I've got one of Dyno Dave's starters on the bike), but it was admittedly a bit of an experiment. It is pretty pricey, compared to other chemistries, and I'm not sure it's worth the cost for most Commandos. Another option I think I'll try when I need a new battery is the Odyssey. Jim Comstock uses one in his street bike, and has only good things to say about it.
Ken
Ken
Ken, the way I look at it, after much reading and living with a/couple of Li batteries, is, you must remove the hype from the Shorai and Ballistic websites to get to the true AH rating. The information is there, but it is definitely not front and centre.
The Pb/eq rating they have created is chosen for a specific reason - to give their batteries a perceived advantage over other batteries in order to sell their batteries.
It is based on the ability to discharge quickly on a single 15 second pull down with fresh fully charged battery, optimum temperature. In a real world situation, ie bike does not start first try, cold temps , or not fully charged, this pb/eq number no longer pertains. Now the battery is equivalent to a much smaller conventional battery.
But I agree that an 18 ah Li battery has more starting capacity than a 6 ah conventional, although it has exactly the same storage capacity as a 6 ah conventional. This is in the ability to do a quick discharge, which is helpful for e starting. Helpful as long as one realizes that even though the starter whirs over like a big lead acid battery is at work, there is only a very short period of time that this can be sustained, whereas an 18 ah lead acid can crank for eons before giving up.
So by choosing the most wildly optimistic rating possible for their new product, coupled with a battery that will not work in the traditional voltage range, they have created a very confusing situation. One search of the internet with the words "shorai battery failure" or "Ballistic battery failure" will also provide a lot of reading.
On further reading
I just read thru the Ballistic website and it is much changed from a year ago. The pb/eq rating has been dropped, they must have heard my ranting :mrgreen: Now they provide a regular amphour rating chart which appears to be accurate. For example, my 12 cell $230 Ballistic that had a pb/eq rating of 20 (equivalent to a 20 amphour lead acid), no longer has that rating. It now has a standard AH rating of 6.9 , which sounds about right. So the weight savings is now against a 6.9 ah lead acid, probably a couple of pounds.
Re the Odyssey batteries - A buddy with a hotrod shop has installed around sixty of these over the last seven years, zero callbacks and the first one installed is still working fine. Hotrods and custom cars are tough on batteries because they sit unused for long periods like our bikes often do.
Glen
The Pb/eq rating they have created is chosen for a specific reason - to give their batteries a perceived advantage over other batteries in order to sell their batteries.
It is based on the ability to discharge quickly on a single 15 second pull down with fresh fully charged battery, optimum temperature. In a real world situation, ie bike does not start first try, cold temps , or not fully charged, this pb/eq number no longer pertains. Now the battery is equivalent to a much smaller conventional battery.
But I agree that an 18 ah Li battery has more starting capacity than a 6 ah conventional, although it has exactly the same storage capacity as a 6 ah conventional. This is in the ability to do a quick discharge, which is helpful for e starting. Helpful as long as one realizes that even though the starter whirs over like a big lead acid battery is at work, there is only a very short period of time that this can be sustained, whereas an 18 ah lead acid can crank for eons before giving up.
So by choosing the most wildly optimistic rating possible for their new product, coupled with a battery that will not work in the traditional voltage range, they have created a very confusing situation. One search of the internet with the words "shorai battery failure" or "Ballistic battery failure" will also provide a lot of reading.
On further reading
I just read thru the Ballistic website and it is much changed from a year ago. The pb/eq rating has been dropped, they must have heard my ranting :mrgreen: Now they provide a regular amphour rating chart which appears to be accurate. For example, my 12 cell $230 Ballistic that had a pb/eq rating of 20 (equivalent to a 20 amphour lead acid), no longer has that rating. It now has a standard AH rating of 6.9 , which sounds about right. So the weight savings is now against a 6.9 ah lead acid, probably a couple of pounds.
Re the Odyssey batteries - A buddy with a hotrod shop has installed around sixty of these over the last seven years, zero callbacks and the first one installed is still working fine. Hotrods and custom cars are tough on batteries because they sit unused for long periods like our bikes often do.
Glen
wow sorry i asked to a simple what do you think about question turn into a full blowen wow thread . my last note on this yes the average buyer would be 200+ on theses battery but i do have some connection hens the 50 more statement . Again im so sorry for asking anything here 
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Yes Stevehobot said:
You pointed out two good points about the Li batteries. Light weight and holding a charge for long durations. But…. Does it out weigh the cost for what you get? Are you getting what you paid your hard greenbacks to run a Norton?
The Norton Commando charging system will never get the Li batteries up to 100 % full charge.
That is why I stated in my first post about reading that link. Its long but its educational. Cy had a similar problem with an older BMW with a charging system that did not deliver for a Li but was totally adequate for a PB brand battery. The ceiling for the voltage is set so our poor old Norton bikes don't boil out our PB batteries. We live today with all our advances yet our bikes are still held in the past.
Kenny Cummings and I had a little conversation on the Li batteries that he uses on his race bikes back at the NY INOA rally. His bikes don't charge the batteries. But he doesn't need that. He needs lightweight to go fast. His duration for the ride is short.
Our old girl Norton’s with incandescent light bulbs and 160W charging systems are just and I mean just adequate. If I had to drop $200 then I would get most of the lamps converted to L.E.D. ie Bulbsthatlastforever. And get L.E.D’s for the blinkers and clocks,
The headlight can still be halogen. I have been running my PB battery for almost 5 years now. Vibration is the enemy. A good rubber pad under and behind the batteries goes a long way.
You not only will be spending a lot of coin on the battery but you would need to re invest in a system that can bring the voltage up to the modern demands of the Li battery.
Regards,
CNN
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