JsMotorsport Maney 850 85bhp motor!

AlColombia · Jan 28, 2013

So it starts to sound like a well planned,reasonably low state of tuning 65-75bhp motor is doable without breaking the bank! Add on some updated brakes and suspension and we have a giant killer dressed in old sheeps clothing.
Sounds like the bike could loose a few kilos to boot!
Al

lcrken · Jan 28, 2013

AlColombia said:
So it starts to sound like a well planned,reasonably low state of tuning 65-75bhp motor is doable without breaking the bank! Add on some updated brakes and suspension and we have a giant killer dressed in old sheeps clothing.
Sounds like the bike could loose a few kilos to boot!
Al

Just a reminder here, it might be time to look at the original post on this thread again. An engine built with the "best of both JsMotorsport and Maney parts" is not going to be what most of us would call "doable without breaking the bank". I'm not saying those aren't good parts. I use both Jim's and Steve's products, and think very highly of them. But putting them all together in an engine isn't going to be anywhere near cheap.

Another suggestion I would throw out. We need to be more specific about whether we're talking engine horsepower at the crank, or rear wheel horsepower. I see both in this thread, and a lot of references that don't specify which they are using, and that just adds confusion. Not trying to start another endless discussion about the amount of loss in the drive train. We've already beat that to death in other threads.

Ken

AlColombia · Jan 28, 2013

I'd go for at the crank bhp-drive trains are negotiable! Cheap I guess is relative.

WEAL Norton · Jan 28, 2013

The Seeley 850 Commando that Jim Schmidt (JS Motorsports) refers to in his youtube link was built by me. There is nothing exotic in the engine. A pair of MAP rods (as Bruno, the owner wanted them), std pistons and a reworked Hemmings head with big valve conversion. The cam is a PW3, carbs are Keihin FCR´s. This winter it got a steel flywheel of my own manufacture for extra safety. Thats about it. I don´t buy those 76 hp, dynojet rolling roads are known here for their "optimism". Neverless - that engine is really a lot quicker than an ordinary 850. The new engine that I built for Bruno has indeed the JS parts in it: rods, pistons, cam and followers. The barrel is from Steve Maney. It got one of my chopped steel flywheels which is a lot lighter. Anyway - Bruno is happy with the result but so far the engine hasn´t been dynoed. My own 905 produced 80 hp at the crank on a SCHENK dyno a while ago - the Schenk is calibrated twice a year and is known to be highly accurate. We have 4 more cams to test and have to play a lot with different exhausts / inlets but I guess we should have around 85 reliable hp this coming summer. Unfortunately this 905 engine is so far away from a std Norton that it will not be possible to plug and play with the parts that we use: Heavily modified crank (90mm stroke) with all balance mass in the outer webs and a 3rd bearing, new left crankcase half, homebuilt rods at 379gr each, 80mm pistons complete with rings and pin at 234 gr each :mrgreen: There is a homebuilt oilpump in it that has more than 3 times the capacity of the Norton pump as we use several oil jets to cool pistons and head etc. We had it up to 7000 several times without any problems, as soon as we still gain some power with another cam above 7000 we will take it up to 8000 as thats the calculated max revs for our parts. If that engine doesn´t grenade on the Schenk in the next few weeks we will built a 6 speeder for it as it will probably destroy all other gearboxes. I think the TTI could stand it but I want to have a different clutch with a bearing in the middle of the drivebelt, just like the crank has - thus no deflection of shaft(s) - no matter what power goes through.

Cheers Hartmut

swooshdave · Jan 28, 2013

WEAL Norton said:
The Seeley 850 Commando that Jim Schmidt (JS Motorsports) refers to in his youtube link was built by me. There is nothing exotic in the engine. A pair of MAP rods (as Bruno, the owner wanted them), std pistons and a reworked Hemmings head with big valve conversion. The cam is a PW3, carbs are Keihin FCR´s. This winter it got a steel flywheel of my own manufacture for extra safety. Thats about it. I don´t buy those 76 hp, dynojet rolling roads are known here for their "optimism". Neverless - that engine is really a lot quicker than an ordinary 850. The new engine that I built for Bruno has indeed the JS parts in it: rods, pistons, cam and followers. The barrel is from Steve Maney. It got one of my chopped steel flywheels which is a lot lighter. Anyway - Bruno is happy with the result but so far the engine hasn´t been dynoed. My own 905 produced 80 hp at the crank on a SCHENK dyno a while ago - the Schenk is calibrated twice a year and is known to be highly accurate. We have 4 more cams to test and have to play a lot with different exhausts / inlets but I guess we should have around 85 reliable hp this coming summer. Unfortunately this 905 engine is so far away from a std Norton that it will not be possible to plug and play with the parts that we use: Heavily modified crank (90mm stroke) with all balance mass in the outer webs and a 3rd bearing, new left crankcase half, homebuilt rods at 379gr each, 80mm pistons complete with rings and pin at 234 gr each :mrgreen: There is a homebuilt oilpump in it that has more than 3 times the capacity of the Norton pump as we use several oil jets to cool pistons and head etc. We had it up to 7000 several times without any problems, as soon as we still gain some power with another cam above 7000 we will take it up to 8000 as thats the calculated max revs for our parts. If that engine doesn´t grenade on the Schenk in the next few weeks we will built a 6 speeder for it as it will probably destroy all other gearboxes. I think the TTI could stand it but I want to have a different clutch with a bearing in the middle of the drivebelt, just like the crank has - thus no deflection of shaft(s) - no matter what power goes through.

Cheers Hartmut

hobot is going to need a towel after reading that. :mrgreen:

Dances with Shrapnel · Jan 28, 2013

swooshdave said:
hobot is going to need a towel after reading that. :mrgreen:

Probably all done with the short strokes. :lol:

As for hartmut, sounds like an interesting build. Am I correct to assume you are using a plain babbit bearing for the middle bearing of the crank? Are you center feeding oil from the middle bearing or splitting the feed?

Hobot · Jan 28, 2013

Yeah Man, WEAL, grabbed a diaper to mop up all the time and money dumped into your fantastic Norton look a like power plant. An engine like this deserves its own thread for all the features and dyno measured feedback before the hi times of riding sensations. All of us might get moist to see the paired down flywheel crank with a 3rd bearing. I bet it'd run to 9000 with nothing more than oil weeps from seams curling their elastic lips open. Do look into cryo tempering as definitely helps but must not have any mixed metals like valve seating in Al or pops right out. Would love some details on expected amount of oil to devote to the spray jets, and how the heck one could oil spray head internally.
Oh did I look into that to find mainly just heats the oil too high so will water the outside if need be.

Peel 920 engine is close enough to this build to have some relation to judge by, I'd be tickled pink with a baseline 80's rwhp, by dream into 90's. Peels bottle neck is the standard valve size in CHO head, kinda hope it stifles some her baseline power response though or might wipe out just getting to pavement. If tire only spins up so much before back off hooks it right up then its easy fun to recover or steer but if spun up faster than can stop with throttle cut , bad ju ju. I know I'll have to spend extra on a good radar detector to tap much of her potential commuting. I've tasted enjoyed more power than wise so must be wise on pulling its so tempting trigger.

Fun Fun Fun till Daddy takes the T-bird away, thanks for the rocking chair thrills bench building into sleep disturbing development. Blipp Blipp Blipppp BLATTT!

WEAL Norton · Jan 28, 2013

As for hartmut, sounds like an interesting build. Am I correct to assume you are using a plain babbit bearing for the middle bearing of the crank? Are you center feeding oil from the middle bearing or splitting the feed?

Here is the answer: no - I have a needle rollerbearing outside of the left bearing in the special crankcase half. The casehalf has material added to house this bearing, thus keeping everything in line and to prevent the mainshaft from flexing when power goes through. The needlebearing is now right in the middle of the 50mm belt pulley. To prevent the crank from flexing all balance weight is added to the outer webs, the middle flywheel is a plain steelplate. This was the reason why we had to make our own conrods - they are much slimmer than anything you could buy but allow us to fit the neccessary weight to the webs. The central flywheel (being of equal weight all around as it is just a round disc) has no tendency to bend the crank - in fact the faster you spin it, the more it keeps to its center, like the children toys of my youth. The crank is still fed from the RH end but not through the timing cover - we needed all the space in there for the bigger pump so the cover is milled out inside. The pump has its own oil pressure valve and due to internal sealing against the pick-up side it doesn´t wetsump.There are some older pics of all this on my homepage. www.britishclassicbikes.de

Cheers Hartmut

Hobot · Jan 28, 2013

OHhhh, out rigger bearing, very clever as can then adapt case cover for clutch center bearing and really nail it all aligned. Appreciate the special features and physics of the disc flywheel. From my meager study your engine should survive more rpms than the long stroke friction makes worth while so may well be bullet proof once TTI tanny saved up for. I"m rocking faster after reading juicy details.

Peel's clutch out rigger will be welded into the inner case with rear case bolted to cradle, just need to figure out the crank end with a Al blower pulley on it.

Peel crank has disc plate wheel too and that nice round flat rim made me look up its rim translation speeds over 8000 rpm to use bearing block material to collide slide on and maybe stifle the jump rope a bit higher. Found out that metal surfaces touching at those rates - diesel detonates the oil layer then turns surfaces into elastic waves that then explode into hi pressure blast of glowing plasma jets.

With these level engines for some reason I keep flashing back on Clint Eastwood quip pulling the trigger, Do ya feel lucky, Punk! Well Do YA?

lcrken · Jan 28, 2013

Thanks for the link to your homepage, Hartmut. Lots of really fascinating pictures there. The jets for cooling oil to the pistons look interesting. That's a nice way to fit them. Is that why you made your own oil pump, to get the extra capacity for the oil cooling jets?

Ken

Hobot · Jan 28, 2013

Amen Ken so lets steal some goodies form Hartmet. Kick ass crank dyno rest us of could die for.

LIghtness is Rightness.

Now this is clever way to place oil jets, hm, how's the jet block mounted?
Clears the piston side cut outs, may not apply to other pistons hm.

WEAL Norton · Jan 29, 2013

lcrken said:
Thanks for the link to your homepage, Hartmut. Lots of really fascinating pictures there. The jets for cooling oil to the pistons look interesting. That's a nice way to fit them. Is that why you made your own oil pump, to get the extra capacity for the oil cooling jets?

Ken

Exactly Ken
we figured out that to keep the thing from melting we would need better lubrication everywhere and thought the original pump to be inadequate. In some pics you see me turning the oilpump with a handdrill in the CNC mill where we make the parts for it. This was the first test of the pump and jets. If the drill was turned full speed, the oil would shoot up 4mtrs from the piston jets, 2mtrs from the three head jets - so plenty of oil around.

Hartmut

WEAL Norton · Jan 29, 2013

As you can see on Hobots pic, the jet block is an integral part of the new crankcase half, jets are 0,5mm Dell Orto idle jets. Interesting to see the pressure gauge. It reads more than 50 psi at 2000 pump revs. The hose going into the cam bore is the "oilfeed" for the return pump. Crank outlet on pump is blocked. On another pic on my homepage you get an idea of the amount that the pump circulates - look at the scavenge outlet pipe: 10mm internal diameter throwing a lot of oil

Hartmut

Hobot · Jan 29, 2013

Ohh milled in place oil jet block ohhh only in my dreams but reveals another location i didn't think possible. Very helpful to see the scale of pump and flow to get effective piston cooling. Narrow jets are used to avoid over oil bore walls. Don't need jets until the burn rate gets high so most have pressure valves that restrict jets till the going gets tough. Thermal opinion call when to cut jets in as helps to get a bit ahead of the heat soak. Research shows it takes .6 L/min to lower piston crown temp 100'F. Hot Rod Racers pump up to 5x's that much per min per piston on boosted and special fuel applications, ugh. I shudder some thinking what pilot experiences to press into full heat power band. I tingle thinking what pilot experiences pressing into full heat power range. i live in too little traction conditions and cut mc eye teeth on loose as a goose street tire dragster so hope I'm up for it when time comes. I did napkin level clac or btu's per 100 hp fuel burn for like half million btu's heat with ~2/3's not doing work just heat to be rid of in time as more on the way. Then there's the tire temperature issues too.

swooshdave · Jan 29, 2013

hobot said:
Amen Ken so lets steal some goodies form Hartmet. Kick ass crank dyno rest us of could die for.

LIghtness is Rightness.

Now this is clever way to place oil jets, hm, how's the jet block mounted?
Clears the piston side cut outs, may not apply to other pistons hm.

While you might think this is a picture of an engine it's actually a picture of hobot when he first heard about this engine. :mrgreen:

Rohan · Jan 29, 2013

swooshdave said:
While you might think this is a picture of an engine it's actually a picture of hobot when he first heard about this engine. :mrgreen:

ROTFPML

Hobot · Jan 29, 2013

Yeah man I don't deny I love to come back as a custom one in a row dream engine someday. Rode in windy rain today to get two wheel drifted at legal speed on slopes on and off road so teeth gritted into instants of un-intended 5th dimensional handling states, makes me wonder if up to pulling trigger on Peel ripening up. Big D in Texas said bring it down there and they'll measure her straining.

Not exactly a mostly stock hopped up 850 thread anymore, hehe and glad of it.

AlColombia · Jan 29, 2013

Hey come on now! I still want my hopped up stock 850!!!

Rohan · Jan 29, 2013

If you want that reliable 85 rwhp roadgoing engine, you too probably need to be investigating those oil squirting bathroom bidet fittings... ??!

bwolfie · Jan 29, 2013

So back to the original question, here is what I would build:

Maney-

1007cc Kit

Cases, crankshaft, barrel, timing gears -I would not get the head gasket and pistons from the kit.

JS MOtorsports

Rods, Pistons, Cam, Lifters, Pushrods, Valves, Springs, Head gasket, base gasket and spindle covers, all light weight and built for longevity.

CNW

Fullauto head, there is nothing better.

So far we are hovering shy of $10K. And we still need an ignition, carbs (I'm thinking FCR's), Oil pump, rockers and spindles, And misc missing smalls.

But you are looking at a top tier large displacment Commando motor. So my best guess would be about a $14K motor all in.

Now the million dollar question, what would this beast produce and how high will it spin?

JsMotorsport Maney 850 85bhp motor!

Similar threads