JsMotorsport Maney 850 85bhp motor!

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For those not familiar with low boost applications a blower &/or a compressor is easier on engine life than w/o. The only bad thing being the ease to exceed red line for same issues as non boosted engines. Engines, ours included can take A Lot more power increase by hi torque component of equation rather than hi rpm power. Drive train and tires are way more at risk than Norton engine boosted to like 50% bigger cc's. Its pretty easy to get more power than regular Cdos can handle it not careful with throttle hand.
 
AlColombia said:
Alloy barrels $1000
Lightweight crank $1600
Pistons $440
Rods $700
Cam,lifters etc $850
Cylinderhead $3000 more or less with the add ons

Total $7650
Sounds like a hoot-when do we start :mrgreen:


I am building a 750 short stroke race motor, your pricing ignores a lot of reality, from bearings to oil pumps, machining, set up, shipping and taxes, and a lot of labour on someones part....before that motor goes in the frame wave goodbye to almost twice your estimate.....whatever displacement....bigger will get the power you want with less detailed work...and a lot of torque....so save up for a transmission and chassis upgrade....

If you want to get a Full Auto...you will also need to ship that to Steve (or someone familiar with it) to rework to fit his 1007 Barrels....in which case a good 920 would be a reasonalble bang for the buck compromise and still meet your needs, and stress that transmission and chassis a lot less.....

But for US traffic conditions....go with the blower and act like a drag racer.....
 
AlColombia said:
Alloy barrels $1000
Lightweight crank $1600
Pistons $440
Rods $700
Cam,lifters etc $850
Cylinderhead $3000 more or less with the add ons

Total $7650
Sounds like a hoot-when do we start :mrgreen:



Just buy a Hayabusa.....it'll be much faster and will last a lot longer!
 
SteveA said:
AlColombia said:
Alloy barrels $1000
Lightweight crank $1600
Pistons $440
Rods $700
Cam,lifters etc $850
Cylinderhead $3000 more or less with the add ons

Total $7650
Sounds like a hoot-when do we start :mrgreen:


I am building a 750 short stroke race motor, your pricing ignores a lot of reality, from bearings to oil pumps, machining, set up, shipping and taxes, and a lot of labour on someones part....before that motor goes in the frame wave goodbye to almost twice your estimate.....whatever displacement....bigger will get the power you want with less detailed work...and a lot of torque....so save up for a transmission and chassis upgrade....

If you want to get a Full Auto...you will also need to ship that to Steve (or someone familiar with it) to rework to fit his 1007 Barrels....in which case a good 920 would be a reasonalble bang for the buck compromise and still meet your needs, and stress that transmission and chassis a lot less.....

But for US traffic conditions....go with the blower and act like a drag racer.....
Ignoring reality it what it`s all about-luckily in Colombia US traffic conditions don`t come into play!
 
OldBalz said:
AlColombia said:
Alloy barrels $1000
Lightweight crank $1600
Pistons $440
Rods $700
Cam,lifters etc $850
Cylinderhead $3000 more or less with the add ons

Total $7650
Sounds like a hoot-when do we start :mrgreen:



Just buy a Hayabusa.....it'll be much faster and will last a lot longer!
Cheesy old Hayabusa :? I have a KTM 990smr :twisted: We are just having fun here folks.I`d rather have a "It can be done" attitude :wink:
 
Al, I'm creeping up on my ultimate street and special event 'Norton' - power plant combo while - retaining the proven isolastic features w/o their disadvantages and wonderful to me well named Roadholder forks. My experience states > even with all the power ya need to take on hi power modern bikes to over the ton, they will whip your ass to *death* trying to handle their speeds and power leans on *untamed* isolastics. Do NOT Attempt follow or lead sports bikes with skilled rider into decent turns, as about time you get near apex you'll be going too fast to recover the flopping fish tank slapping tire loosing upset. If going the solid Seeley frame route then you will still be out handled by the more advanced moderns technology. If I had to choose between a basic hopped up 750 Combat with special linkage or blown Hi CR 8000+ rpm 920 in Seeley to tangle with moderns in real life road conditions, I'd take the 3-linked 750 handling advantage over the overpowered Seeley in a NY minute as could womp up on them over powered too rigid buzz bomb balloon tire corner cripples in two shakes of a Billie Goat's tail. With the hydrid rear robust and 2 compliant helper linkages on a lightened up everything frame with blown 920 I expect to surprise everyone at a major magazine shoot out with the best they can assemble. Going by what the mere Combat power allowed I'd expect it to take a highly developed 250 hp GP bike to beat boosted 920 Peel, but only after 100 mph if leans less than 45' and not one after another. In other words I've nil respect for what I've seen in GP racers tangling in tights but in awe what they can do in freeway conditions. So if ya can't afford 10K or so for race level engine then go with the lessor expensive suggestions above and mimic Peel's chassis set up to put down more torque/power on skinny tire than the moderns can dream about handling. If ya can afford the best engine possible then still highly recommend mimicking Peel to take full advantage of the extra power. Fun Fun Fun till Daddy takes ya T-bird away.
 
hobot said:
Going by what the mere Combat power allowed I'd expect it to take a highly developed 250 hp GP bike to beat boosted 920 Peel, but only after 100 mph if leans less than 45' and not one after another.

Reality check.....a 125GP with half decent rider will run circles around you on just about any road course.

And that's a fact jack.
 
I've seen a good rider on an RS125 ride around several guys on R6 Yamahas. You can beat an R6 with mediocre rider using my Seeley, but only because they haven't got their heads straight. I don't get delusional and worry about trying to beat guys on modern bikes. The fact that kids with little experience can get on them and go really fast safely, should tell you something. You don't get to be a good rider by riding bad bikes. As a kid, I went through a protracted crash and burn stage. These days I don't crash, but that doesn't mean I am a good rider, I simply know how to avoid crashing and still go fast. I believe good modern bike teaches you how to be smooth, you don't have to worry about the handling or the power, they are both there ready to be used. I love my Seeley - some things are so bad that they are good.
 
SUMMER IS NIGH,
Get the polish out, check the tyres and go down to the pub....a few beers and talk speed! On the way home [within the legal limit] you can listen to the pea shoots and imagin you are Peter williams...when some 20 or so comes by amd a GXR 1000 ....well its a good job "Your in a good mood today, other wise he would be toast" :lol:

Tell the wife just how lucky the "BOY" was...." I would have blown him off luv. but remembered me Iso's need a tweek" :roll:

She smiles and ask' s " when are you mowing the lawn dear" ? Enjoy the old girl's and give im a easy retirment. or get a CBR 1000rr.
 
Summer is not 'nigh' in Benalla. It is extremely hot here , and I'm waiting for a cool day, so I can get into my shed and change the selector drum in my TTI gearbox. No need to cut the lawns, they are all dead, and my garden is full of dead grass, A while ago it rained heavily, then the sun came out and killed all the growth. My dog has dug a hole under my wheel barrow, that's where he hides when he is not inside the house lying on the floor tiles enjoying the air conditioning.
How do you get to the pub when it is 43 deg. Celcius outside and it is a mile away ? The car gets red hot in 2 minutes, if parked in the sun, and its airconditioner barely copes.
 
Reality check.....a 125GP with half decent rider will run circles around you on just about any road course. And that's a fact jack.

With due respect Dances Ms Peel retains the 125 skinny stable tire cornering grip and easy fling around with advantage of delicate tire spin control of hi hp bikes in a frame that can not be upset out of normal leaned two tire contact counter steering until forcing a crash like let go by seeming over doing of lean fork snatch or power spike. This skinny vs fat tire issue has been thoroughly investigated by me to know what i like and lost repect for ballooon tires but for bee lines. I've been to the mixed class races 125cc, 250's and 45 cid Indians plus Seeley racer telling me 125's get around him. I saw floppy eared Indian with super compliant frame wobble and sprong around a leading 125 by planting more power leaning harder and turning sharper on inside with 125 trying hard to cut that path off but Indian shoot two bike lengths ahead then they hit straight WOT and didn't chance an inch in position all the way to next turn, so power matched perfectly.

I don't look at Indians or 125's as worthy competition to Ms Peel, in case you don't know the facts of the matter a good 600 to 1000 cc sports bike can enter go though and leave about toughest turns like 50 mph faster than a 125. If you ain't got the elite's in your sights on a vintage Norton Commando or what ever, oh well, I sure do. It ain't me its the tri-linked frame solution. Every bike I get on I work up foul limits then at full foul limits creep up on tire skip out power spikes, then at full lean and full traction I creep up on fork sharpness. This is the max loads a bike can take and still stay in counter steering control. Every bike but one lets go on me in surprise with just a wee bit of extra lean or throttle or steer, but one. Anything less than this to me is just a relaxing easy rush into expanding wide opens. ya have to back off other bikes into decreasing radius turns, not Peel no Sir Ree Bob, she invited making every mild turn a series of decreasing radius just for some slightly unpredictable pilot skill thrills on pavement security .

We spoke of Drouin power and you and others have mentioned some hindrance to the Commando fling ease. Pashaw man when you are entering 10 mph switch back chicanes at over 50 mph = 75 ft/sec on broken frost heaved bluff face wagon trail hwy with 9 ft wide lanes you must stay in side of d/t blind encounters there is nil time for any human delay in power or speed for control reactions to hit, so Peel uses pure power to trip herself down to almost instantly crash back up in new direction essentially upright on WOT into the next snatch down fly up > topping out on 21 tooth ratio 2nd gear red zone. To do this type turning requires shooting right up to paint lines but not touching them. Ms Peel was so nice she created a safety practice game on commutes of seeing how close to outside paint line she could run and not slip on it, because if I didn't the leans were so low it put my head across the yellar lines or over the broken down railings on inside of turns. To go faster Ms Peel needs more power not more handling capacity, which is totally solved-done on Peel as far as I'm concerned or brave enough to use. Well two things Peel could use, when doing a switch back jerk down fly up cresting apex - 2 gallon space in IS tank allows 4 gallons inertial delay smack on lifted forks the opposite direction I just snatched em - so throws Peel off her line while air borne into opposite lane, so a baffle needed for that size tank, and ground effects lift and drop her slightly unpredictability, which is a non issue on elites maybe but life death on Peel few mere inches to spare from forever over. To recover this literal Tank Slap uspet is what really tested me and Peel aimed about 90' across road and only distance of mid lane awy from paint line to turn about 90's again at about 50 mph/ 75 ft/sec. or fly off edge into tree tops some distance below.

The hook turn at Barbers is like 3 x's wider lane and twice as mild a radius as what is know as " The Jasper Disaster" by the rest of the world, with 3 miles of chicanes so close ya can throw a rock from one apex to another. The Punca section out of the Buffalo River Lost Valley is what I'm talking about

http://www.tourdehills.com/jd.html
JsMotorsport Maney 850 85bhp motor!


Camera lens angle and lean ability and speed disguise the sharpness but note that AR finally stopped replacing guard rails on inside of turns and just gets wiped out by next truck trying to straddle rail so not to hit on coming.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE43gw08MMw[/video]


Someday I hope others join in the road going water skiing organisms as its funner than sex! Glance at avatar for my sense of close call G's in turns Peels gives.
 
AlColombia said:
It would be nice to hear from the manufacturers of the gear,what do they think such a motor would produce?

Here's a quote from Brad Baird who is using a stock head with other JS motorsport parts. The big improvement is in efficiency.

"Jim, here's the pic of the long awaited finished bike. Steve [big D cycle] said it's the smoothest 850 he's ridden. It surprised Keith [big D cycle] when it did 60HP between five and six and a half grand at the rear wheel on the dyno and at 5K sounded like it shifted into a higher gear or someone turned on the nitrous! Thank's for all the good products."

[JS lightweight Medium C.R. pistons, longer rods, flatslide carbs, stage one cam & lightweight lifters, beehive valve springs] Brad Baird - see photo below

JsMotorsport Maney 850 85bhp motor!



Bruno Waltersbacher's 850 Seeley racer with JS lightweight HI comp pistons, longer rods, Streetable JS1 cam kit. Dynoed at 76 HP - see photo below

JsMotorsport Maney 850 85bhp motor!


see dyno run here (I believe this is an early version of the same bike)
http://youtu.be/ZeIpr32reQ0


Note that JSmotorsport 1000cc pistons for the Maney engine weigh only 240 grams (less than stock 750 Hepolite pistons). This makes a huge difference in revvability and reliability.
 
Good vid Jim, couldnt help notice his primary cover! Any clues to its maker?
foxy
 
hobot said:
Reality check.....a 125GP with half decent rider will run circles around you on just about any road course. And that's a fact jack.

With due respect Dances Ms Peel retains the 125 skinny stable tire cornering grip and easy fling around with advantage of delicate tire spin control of hi hp bikes in a frame that can not be upset out of normal leaned two tire contact counter steering until forcing a crash like let go by seeming over doing of lean fork snatch or power spike. This skinny vs fat tire issue has been thoroughly investigated by me to know what i like and lost repect for ballooon tires but for bee lines. I've been to the mixed class races 125cc, 250's and 45 cid Indians plus Seeley racer telling me 125's get around him. I saw floppy eared Indian with super compliant frame wobble and sprong around a leading 125 by planting more power leaning harder and turning sharper on inside with 125 trying hard to cut that path off but Indian shoot two bike lengths ahead then they hit straight WOT and didn't chance an inch in position all the way to next turn, so power matched perfectly.

I don't look at Indians or 125's as worthy competition to Ms Peel, in case you don't know the facts of the matter a good 600 to 1000 cc sports bike can enter go though and leave about toughest turns like 50 mph faster than a 125. If you ain't got the elite's in your sights on a vintage Norton Commando or what ever, oh well, I sure do. It ain't me its the tri-linked frame solution. Every bike I get on I work up foul limits then at full foul limits creep up on tire skip out power spikes, then at full lean and full traction I creep up on fork sharpness. This is the max loads a bike can take and still stay in counter steering control. Every bike but one lets go on me in surprise with just a wee bit of extra lean or throttle or steer, but one. Anything less than this to me is just a relaxing easy rush into expanding wide opens. ya have to back off other bikes into decreasing radius turns, not Peel no Sir Ree Bob, she invited making every mild turn a series of decreasing radius just for some slightly unpredictable pilot skill thrills on pavement security .

We spoke of Drouin power and you and others have mentioned some hindrance to the Commando fling ease. Pashaw man when you are entering 10 mph switch back chicanes at over 50 mph = 75 ft/sec on broken frost heaved bluff face wagon trail hwy with 9 ft wide lanes you must stay in side of d/t blind encounters there is nil time for any human delay in power or speed for control reactions to hit, so Peel uses pure power to trip herself down to almost instantly crash back up in new direction essentially upright on WOT into the next snatch down fly up > topping out on 21 tooth ratio 2nd gear red zone. To do this type turning requires shooting right up to paint lines but not touching them. Ms Peel was so nice she created a safety practice game on commutes of seeing how close to outside paint line she could run and not slip on it, because if I didn't the leans were so low it put my head across the yellar lines or over the broken down railings on inside of turns. To go faster Ms Peel needs more power not more handling capacity, which is totally solved-done on Peel as far as I'm concerned or brave enough to use. Well two things Peel could use, when doing a switch back jerk down fly up cresting apex - 2 gallon space in IS tank allows 4 gallons inertial delay smack on lifted forks the opposite direction I just snatched em - so throws Peel off her line while air borne into opposite lane, so a baffle needed for that size tank, and ground effects lift and drop her slightly unpredictability, which is a non issue on elites maybe but life death on Peel few mere inches to spare from forever over. To recover this literal Tank Slap uspet is what really tested me and Peel aimed about 90' across road and only distance of mid lane awy from paint line to turn about 90's again at about 50 mph/ 75 ft/sec. or fly off edge into tree tops some distance below.

The hook turn at Barbers is like 3 x's wider lane and twice as mild a radius as what is know as " The Jasper Disaster" by the rest of the world, with 3 miles of chicanes so close ya can throw a rock from one apex to another. The Punca section out of the Buffalo River Lost Valley is what I'm talking about

http://www.tourdehills.com/jd.html
JsMotorsport Maney 850 85bhp motor!


Camera lens angle and lean ability and speed disguise the sharpness but note that AR finally stopped replacing guard rails on inside of turns and just gets wiped out by next truck trying to straddle rail so not to hit on coming.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE43gw08MMw[/video]


Someday I hope others join in the road going water skiing organisms as its funner than sex! Glance at avatar for my sense of close call G's in turns Peels gives.
The road in the vid looks a lot like the roads around Medellin,but that road surface is way better!
 
jseng1 said:
AlColombia said:
It would be nice to hear from the manufacturers of the gear,what do they think such a motor would produce?

Here's a quote from Brad Baird who is using a stock head with other JS motorsport parts. The big improvement is in efficiency.

"Jim, here's the pic of the long awaited finished bike. Steve [big D cycle] said it's the smoothest 850 he's ridden. It surprised Keith [big D cycle] when it did 60HP between five and six and a half grand at the rear wheel on the dyno and at 5K sounded like it shifted into a higher gear or someone turned on the nitrous! Thank's for all the good products."

[JS lightweight Medium C.R. pistons, longer rods, flatslide carbs, stage one cam & lightweight lifters, beehive valve springs] Brad Baird - see photo below

JsMotorsport Maney 850 85bhp motor!



Bruno Waltersbacher's 850 Seeley racer with JS lightweight HI comp pistons, longer rods, Streetable JS1 cam kit. Dynoed at 78 HP - see photo below

JsMotorsport Maney 850 85bhp motor!


see dyno run here (I believe this is the same bike with a couple changes from the photo)
http://youtu.be/ZeIpr32reQ0


Note that JSmotorsport 1000cc pistons for the Maney engine weigh only 240 grams (less than stock 750 Hepolite pistons). This makes a huge difference in revvability and reliability.
Damn! Brad and I have the exact same model paint an all! Sadly not his motor(but I do have the Lockhheed caliper and floating disc)
What would one of the new manfactured and flowed cylinderheads add to the picture,if anything?
Al
 
The question for me is at what point do you chuck out all of the original Norton parts and build an entirely new engine instead? The new engine would be a Norton lookalike and soundalike, but would stray a fair bit in design in order to hang together at higher power levels.
To my way of thinking,with original crank and cases, 60 rwhp is probably about it for the old girl, if it is expected to hang together for a reasonable distance, say 50,000 miles.
Given that this engine and trans design started life in 1948 with somewhere around 20 rwhp, got bumped multiple times up to 650 ss levels in the early sixties, then to Commando levels, then to Combat (oops, too far, better back off) then finally settled on the high torque 850 configuration, is it wise to push it much further?
With the various beefed up bits on the MK3, perhaps there is a small margin of durability left to be exploited, but it cannot be all that much? Kenny Dreer knows what doesn't work, even with significant consideration given to adding strength!

On the other hand the idea of an entirely new oversized engine like the Maney 1007 is intriguing, very similar idea to the Vincent engine I' m currently assembling for use in the Egli style project bike
It will be a Vincent lookalike, soundalike, but has only a few parts that match the original design. And I would say that it has been proven that the original Vincent had a large capacity to handle substantially increased power output (Black Lightning, various Supercharged bikes etc), much more so than the Hopwood Norton engine does.
Nonetheless, I did not want to attempt to extract roughly double stock power levels with standard and original Vincent engine cases. Andy Molnar of Molnar Manx builds fortified Vincent cases made for the job, so that was the obvious choice.
Same with most of the internals, greater strength was needed thoughout. It remains to be seen if it will work out.

Glen
 
worntorn said:
The question for me is at what point do you chuck out all of the original Norton parts and build an entirely new engine instead?

My thoughts exactly. When everything is said and done, build a 1,007cc as it is really just a scaled up (bore and stroke) 750 cc and the cams on the market are tailored to the engine.

I would say it is the most reliable and cost effective way to get gobs of torque, plenty of power and reliability.

Yes, you do pay for that reliability.
 
AlColombia said:
What would one of the new manfactured and flowed cylinderheads add to the picture,if anything?
Al


Ports, pipes and intake track length make a significant difference but I don't have numbers.
 
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